Me too. Reinstalling Browser, and Java separately did not help. The same configuration runs fine on another similar system. I get the following error on first attempt
Java(TM) Plug-in Fatal Error
The Java Runtime Environment cannot be loaded.
On further attempts I get
Java(TM) Plug-in Fatal Error
Several Java Virtual Machines running in the same process caused an error
One thing I noticed is that attempting to enable APPLET tag from Java Control Panel fails with the message
Warning - Browser
Unable to change Browser Settings
Please check that Mozilla or Netscape is properly installed on the system and/or that you have sufficient permissions to change system settings.
I am running Firefox on Windows XP SP2 under an admin priviledges account and about:plugins shows that Java Plug-In is installed.
Thanks
AHAAAA!!!!!!
OK, get this one....we tried EVERYTHING...uninstalled/installed at least four times. The last time after seeing the same error message I had the user adjust his -Xmx setting down from 512M to 256M. THAT DID IT!
For some reason, on some machines running IE on Windows XP SP2, the -Xmx512M setting isn't very well liked!
Note that this user had 1gig of memory, so it wasn't an issue about it not being there.
Anyway, give that a try.
> Scratch the previous message. Apparently, the 1G
> settings were still there. No options and 256M
> options both work!
>
> Thanks
Well, now we know what the problem is, but someoone (either Microsoft's IE folks or Sun's Java folks) need to get on this.
I have found that if JRE memory parameter is set above 1/2 of system RAM, this error will occur. However, it does not always occur. When using I.E., if upon opening browser I do not let default page load (which for me contains javascript), I can then launch my java app without this error even though the memory parameter exceeds 1/2 of system RAM
> I have found that if JRE memory parameter is set
> above 1/2 of system RAM, this error will occur.
> However, it does not always occur. When using I.E.,
> if upon opening browser I do not let default page
> load (which for me contains javascript), I can then
> launch my java app without this error even though the
> memory parameter exceeds 1/2 of system RAM
We have got it to occur at well under 1/2 of the memory on two machines.
One was a machine with 1gig and a setting of -Xms128M -Xmx256M
The other was a machine with 768M and the same setting.
So it looks like the 1/2 available memory limit may not be the only factor here.
Hmm....I wonder if this is related: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=4850939
Same symtom, although they didn't mention the memory setting. My guess is that Java is geting confused, and setting the memory just makes it more likely to happen and may not be the fault of the code that is grabbing the memory.
The problem you describe is an exact duplicate of http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6359309 that was pointed out in one of the previouse replies to this posting.
The problem is that even though you have 1G of memory this memory is used by other programs that are running on your machine.When you specify -Xmx parameter that cannot be allocated by vm upon startup, vm fails to load. As a result, plugin fails to load applet. Please read some of the last comments to the bug above. The fix for this problem would have to be done in the way vm handles the case when it is unable to allocate memory required by applet.
I had the same problem. On explorer page, click tools, internet options.
Click on advanced. Scroll down to Java and VM. I unchecked all the boxes that were checked. It works now without the error of Several Java virtual machines running in the same process. However I did go back and checked the Jit compiler for virtual machine, and it still works fine. It helped staying connected to the internet which I also was having a problem.
My company has a Web application that use an IBM Java applet to initiate transactions from the UI to the server. The navigational interface uses AJAX and Microsoft OWC10 to build pivottables that list the database document set.
A new customer reported this exact bug when working with documents in the application. Only this one customer has reported this bug; however, we've had ongoing issues with IE crashing when multiple (>3) windows are opened in the same browser session using the OWC UI. The customer has only 1.5.0_06 installed while my computer has been updated twice since Our navigational UI does not use the java applet, but every document opened from it does.
As a result of the IE crash issue, we titled the target window that opens documents from the list of same. This does helps to prevent the unwanted IE crashes, but loses some functionality as users can no longer open two documents in different windows and compare them.
I had hoped that this bug report: http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6359309
might have resolved both issues; however, I've tried setting the XMX value to 256Mb and resetting the target window to _blank, but it did not resolve the browser crashing. My customer reports that they also set their memory but continue to experience the same error alert re: Several Java Virtual.....
Has anyone found a surefire solution to this problem. I am not a developer, just a user who is very frustrated since upgrading to jre1.5.0_07. I am not sure what the reference to "parameters" means, but I am assuming that it reserves a certain amount of my RAM to be used by java.
I have 1.25 GB of RAM and have put the following text in the Java -> Java Applet Runtime Settings -> View -> Java Runtime Parameters section:
-Xmx512M
Is this the correct syntax? I chose 512M because it is well beneath the 1/2 mark for the amount of RAM on my machine.
This, however, has not solved my problem. I am still receiving the "running in same process" error. I am experiencing the problem when playing TextTwist at games.yahoo.com. Thank you in advance to anyone who can provide a solution.
Regards,
Diffie
Additional Info:
I don't know if this means anyhing or not, but I have dozens of entries in my registry under HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\...
all having the same InprocServer32 folder containing the keys:
(Default) - C:\Program Files\Java\jre1.5.0_07\bin\ssv.dll and
ThreadingModel - Apartment
Regards,
Diffie
Another update:
Since I have received no responses to my posts, I decided to try isolating the cause of the problem myself. I completely uninstalled JRE 1.5 Update 7 and all references to it in the registry. I then reinstalled it to see if if the problems reappeared. They did. I then uninstalled JRE 1.5 Update 7 a 2nd time, again removing all references to it in the registry. This time I installed JRE 1.5 Update 6. I went to several sites where I had noticed the problems. Guess what? No problems. All sites containing Java components now run flawlessly. This is definitely a problem within Update 7. What amazes me is that I have found hundreds of unique references to this problem on various BBs and no responses from Sun whatsoever. It seems that they are taking on the old Microsoft attitude of "we are so prolific that we do not have to listen to anyone else." If they keep that attitude, we will soon see Sun fading into the background.
Regards,
Diffie
I read many of the posts regarding this issue, and none of the suggestions seemed to cure the problem. I could not even bring up the Sun Java Console, let alone run any applets. I tried uninstalling and installing numerous versions of the JRE (updates 6 through 8) along with trying to clean out the registry. And I also tried passing in the arguments to limit the heap size (based on suggestions from some of the posts as to possible solutions for curing the error message in question). But I had no luck. I also noticed that I didn't have the same problems with Netscape 7.1 (which I still have on my system), but IE6 remained problematic. I even went as far as installing the IE7 RC to see if that would change anything. After a day of all this experimenting, I had pretty much gotten no where.
Finally, on a whim, I decided to ask a colleague to log into my machine (the machine with the symptoms in question). The interesting thing is that he did not get the same error. So I immediately started to think that the installation of the JRE was probably fine, and that it was something about my profile that was problematic. I tried clearing out some of the Sun and Java related files and directories under the "Documents and Settings" for my user, but that didn't seem to help. Finally, I decided to disable most of the browser add ons for IE. And after doing that, everything started to work again. I could bring up the Sun Java Console. And I could run applets again. I decided to turn on the add ons little by little to find the culprit. In my particular case, it was the "ViewMgr" add on. So after reading all these posts associated with the error messages in question, I would recommend that the user try turning off as many of the add-ons and plug-ins for the browser as possible to see if that helps (if none of the other suggestions seem to be working).
Yea I get the same message when i visit this link:
http://games.yahoo.com/games/login2?page=pl&ss=1
The whole site runs Java applets. All this talk about setting the parameter to -Xmx "1/2 of your RAM" Doesnt work. Ive tried 512 (which is my max) 256 and 128. If someone can tell me how to exactly fix the problem that would be great
Heres what I did, on internet explorer go to tools>internet options>advanced and then go down to where it says java (sun). I unticked that box, restarted internet explorer, went back to internet options and ticked the box again, restarted internet explorer and everything started working. Dont sound too professional, but it worked for me!
I am at a complete loss on how to fix this on my PC.
I am NOT technical whatsoever. I have an HP laptop running windows XP SP2. I just recently upgraded my browser to IE7 and since then I constantly get this error message when I attempt to launch a web page which uses the JRE.
I need to know what to do to prevent this error from occurring. I have no idea how to change the memory settings as has been discussed on this thread. Detailed instructions would be welcome please.
Thanks
I am not a developer but I have read that a lot of people has had the same problem without being a programmer .
When I updated to IE7 I started getting this message and was unable to run simple java applications like the Yahoo Fantasy Stattrackers.
I immediately noticed the problem as I only one of my computers that had not been updated to IE7 was still working with these programs, so I tried most of the solutions offered here but never really solved them, deleting the directories never worked.
So I just went to the Sun site and downloaded the last version of the 1.4 release and that alone solved my problem, but beware! If you do not change your settings in the Java Control Panel you will continue having the problem as the newer version will be active.
Also be aware that you will get a daily reminder that there is new updates from Sun, if you want to keep your programs running do not download or you will go back to the same problem.
WITH 33 or more problems with IE7 can we just use the KISS method...which do we do completely uninstall version7 or IGNORE updates for your software.....Please give a plain and simple ANSWER.
DOWN RIGHT NOW
Installed IE 7 and several new additions...Disabled Start ups thru MSCONFIG.
Using game site POGO try to enter game lists the above errors.
Checked Java but error hendered me from entering.
Now I have signed up,,,would like to know answer.
Message was edited by:
janiebird
well, at this point in the thread, thank you!
i dropped mine from
-Xms256m -Xmx512m -Xss6m (which had been working for months!)
to
-Xms256m -Xmx256m -Xss6m
on Microsoft Windows XP [Version 5.1.2600]
and i can access our web applications
i think this is related to the way other programmers in the company implemented jave in the default home page and in the time clock applications--but why it just started yesterday I cannot explain
System Information report written at: 01/29/2004 03:30:37 PM
[System Summary]
ItemValue
OS NameMicrosoft Windows 2000 Professional
Version5.0.2195 Service Pack 2 Build 2195
System ManufacturerINT430
System ModelSYSFexxx
System TypeX86-based PC
Processorx86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 3 GenuineIntel ~647 Mhz
BIOS VersionPhoenix ROM BIOS PLUS Version 1.10 A14
Windows DirectoryC:\WINNT
System DirectoryC:\WINNT\System32
Boot Device\Device\Harddisk0\Partition2
Total Physical Memory130,460 KB
Available Physical Memory4,608 KB
Total Virtual Memory628,764 KB
Available Virtual Memory305,368 KB
Page File Space498,304 KB
I solved it for my computer. I tried everything. I have IE 7 and I blamed it on that but I found the solution.
1. Uninstall all 1.5 versions you have or all version of the JVM.
2. Go on the internet and find an old version. I used 1.4.2
3. Install 1.4.2
4. Never upgrade again until Sun gets their act together and fixes this.
Problem solved.
The issue here is the amount of memory available.
You could test this by running a simple java program with the memory settings that u tried earlier (-Xmx 512m)...if your machine don't have enough resources, even running a simple java pgm with these memory settings would cause this error.
Soln, either have more memory or run programs with less mem.
even if you have 1G mem, there won't be enough mem available to run ur program.
So if you have several JVMs running and using so much memory, this error could happen.
Hope this helps
I "had" the same problem you all had with internet 7, using the latest java 1.5.0
I tried everything no luck. I took the advise to get the previous version, but also obtained the latest versions extractable installation files. In the control panel's add/remove screen, I found that I had java, 1.4 with 3 versions of updates as well as the version 1.5. I think my system was confused. I first deleted all version 1.4 updates. Then rebooted to try to see if 1.5 would work. No good. So I deleted the 1.5 & rebooted. Now I have no java. Next I reinstalled 1.5 & it works perfectly. No issues. I guess that when you have a previous version already there when installing the newer version that it created a conflict during the installation which gave me my problem. I said that I had the the previous version also. Well this was in case 1.5 continued to be a problem which it didn't. So if you continue to have this problem, elimitate all the java software, then reinstall the latest to which you might find a bettyter success. Thanks for being here, you all gave me food for thought to help resolve the issue :).
This is caused by the installation of IE 7 (internet exporer 7). I tried everything that other sites had suggested - IE 7 was realeased with a lot of issues. So - I went to my control panel - uninstalled it - thinking I would have to re install IE 6 - but it only took away the IE 7 additions and left my prior version there. Now everything works great again....I will wait for awhile before I add IE 7 again - give them timeto fix all issues.
If you are running IE7, then go to Tools, Manage Add On's, Enable/Disable, Add on's that run without requiring permission.
Then select all Java plug ins and hit delete.
You might also need to go to Control Panel, Add/Remove Programs, and remove all instances of J2SE
Then go to http://java.sun.com/javase/downloads/index.jsp and download the latest version.
Then go to http://www.java.com/en/download/help/testvm.xml to see if it is working
Message was edited by:
nuttmutt
hi, I have this problem as well. I have the latest Internet explorer version 7.0 and i have the latest Java version 5 update 9, but i seem to get this message otherwise. It is very strange because some days it allows me to go onto this game i play on but other days like today it doesn't. I get the error message saying that my Java run time environment could not be loaded and then after i click ok another error messages comes up, Several Java Virtual Machines running in the same process caused an error. I have done numerous types of things to sort this problem out, from uninstall my Java and reinstalling it to checking boxes and deleting information on my windows. When i succeed in getting on the game, if i then close my internet explorer down and come to it the next day it does not work again and comes up with the same error, if I do what i did to make it work before, this time it does not take effect and the problem still occurs. I am running out of ideas so can SOMEONE PLEASE HELP!! Thanx X
I seem to be getting 1 of 2 Java Plugin Errors whenever I try to go into a room that requires java. I either get "Java(TM) Plug-in Fatal Error - Several Java Virtual Machines Running In The Same Process Caused An Error", or I get "Java(TM) Plug-in Fatal Error - The Java Runtime Environment Cannot Be Loaded". I've uninstalled & reinstalled my Java & my browser (Internet Explorer 7). I've also cleaned out my java & browser caches. I've even cleaned out my windows registry, using my Registry Mechanic software. It seems like no matter what I do, the results remain the same. I currently have Sun Download Manager 2.0 (web), Java Web Start, Java 2 Runtime Environment Standard Edition v1.3.1_01, J2SE Runtime Environment 5.0 Updates 9 & 10 on my pc. I sometimes wonder if I may have too much on my pc, or if it may have something to do with my IE7 browser.
I have found a sollution to this i have found 2 because 1/2 ram is above the Default it will cause this Issue sorry my english very bad...
1st=restart and go back to the website..see if it works
2nd=Windows xp users start>contol panel>System>advanced->Performance(setting)->Advanced->virtualmemory(change)>Click system managed size>set then Ok restart your computer after....and reply in this Forum for any details...
Java Kings
my wifes's compaq evo D51c had the same problem.
Windows XP SP2 installed,
Internet Explorer Version 7 installed
256 mb memory installed
running V 1.5.0 _10
i had to bring the setting down to -Xmx128M, which is half of the physical memory, of course java has to be enabled under "extras-internet options-advanced-java"
no problem since but i am going to upgrade memory size.
maybe some of the people with this problem have bad memory modules so even if the setting is half of the physical memory size it still wont work
> Me too. Reinstalling Browser, and Java separately did
> not help. The same configuration runs fine on another
> similar system. I get the following error on first
> attempt
>
> Java(TM) Plug-in Fatal Error
> The Java Runtime Environment cannot be loaded.
>
> On further attempts I get
>
> Java(TM) Plug-in Fatal Error
> Several Java Virtual Machines running in the same
> process caused an error
>
> One thing I noticed is that attempting to enable
> APPLET tag from Java Control Panel fails with the
> message
>
> Warning - Browser
> Unable to change Browser Settings
> Please check that Mozilla or Netscape is properly
> installed on the system and/or that you have
> sufficient permissions to change system settings.
>
> I am running Firefox on Windows XP SP2 under an admin
> priviledges account and about:plugins shows that Java
> Plug-In is installed.
>
> Thanks
I too have a problem with this error message
This problem started to become a problem after I installed IE 7 and updated java to update 9. There must be a conflict with these two. this problem did not occur with Foxfire until I updated to update 10 in an attempt to fix problem in IE.
Now I have this Java problem with both my browsers
Is there an answer? well I doubt one will come from Sun or from Microsoft, because they will each blame eachother.
I hope someone on this forum will have an answer or a solid recomendation to fix this problem before this topic is shut down and ignored, as it only seems to be a few people who are effected by this problem (or so they think)
I have tried to un install Java, but even reinstalling does not seem to make this error message go away. IS this an XP problem or a Java problem?
This problem has been driving me demented and seems very unreliable. My latest solution seems to be to disable Windows Line sign-in in the iE add-ons. Jave immediately starts to work properly ? I don't care why this is so but it seems to be sorted for now ...
I wonder how long for...
Cheers
Mike
I found a solution which I have been able to reproduce on my machine - running IE 7 / Windows XP. I disabled the Windows Live Sign-in add-on in IE 7 and Java immediately operates normally. I can then enable the Sign-in add-on if I want and retain the Java operation but a relaunch results in Java again showing the error until I disable the sign-in add-on again...
If this doesn't woirk I'd try disabling the IE add-ons and see it this clears it...
Cheers
Mike
Can you help? I am a computer illiterate to the greatest degree.. can some one help me ? and give me a step by step account on what to do... Thank you.
i get the following error messages " The Runtme envrionment cannot be loaded" and ' Several Java Virtual Machines running in the same process caused an error" . Apparently, there is a JAV(TM) Plug-in Fatal error. i can't run any java applets at all. I'm using Windows XP ( Home edition0. My email is leongheng69@gmail.com
I am embarassed to give you my solution, but do this in hopes that it helps anyone else! I got this SAME issue for MONTHS. And for MONTHS I've been mystified with why this happens. Here's the reason. So often, when I install an update for a program, most intelligent updates I receive uninstall any updates NOT needed and install new parts (or reinstall over old files). NOT THE CASE with my machine.
In my Add/Remove Programs, I am mortified to find that I have THREE VERSION of Java in there. In my Java file (under C:/Program Files/Java), I had FOUR folders of Java programs (though my 1.5.0_6 HAD been uninstalled, except for one useless zip folder). After adding and removing the other two versions (1.5.0_8 and 1.5.0_9), my 1.5.0_10 worked fine.
I hope this helps SOMEone. :)
> AHAAAA!!!!!!
>
>
> OK, get this one....we tried
> EVERYTHING...uninstalled/installed at least four
> times. The last time after seeing the same error
> message I had the user adjust his -Xmx setting down
> from 512M to 256M. THAT DID IT!
>
> For some reason, on some machines running IE on
> Windows XP SP2, the -Xmx512M setting isn't very well
> liked!
>
> Note that this user had 1gig of memory, so it wasn't
> an issue about it not being there.
>
> Anyway, give that a try.
FINALLY, I found a consistent solution to this bug.
I am using IE7 and Java Version 1.5.0 (build 1.5.0_10-b03) (the latest and greatest). I have had this problem with OptionsXpress Java charts ever since I installed IE 7.
I've tried to reinstall, clear caches and all that. The applet would some times load but never twice in a row.
The solution is so straightforward:
Go to Control Panel->Java->Advanced-><APPLET> Tag Support
and UNCHECK Internet Explorer (and Mozilla/Netscape if you use those).
It's been working for me now through a couple reboots.
When I lock in to access some internet applications I always have the error message 'several Java Virtual Machines running'. I tired to uninstall and re-install but still keep having this same error. I have installed the latest Java JRE 1.5.0_10 running under Window XP Home edition on my notebook. Please help....
Thank you.
Message was edited by:
Weng23
I upgraded my Java and now have many problems. I have tried deleting and reloading several times to no avail. Some of the errors are: Java runtime environment cannot be loaded, Java plug-in fatal erro, several Java virtual machines runnin the same process caused an error. I am trying to run Pogo games and have tried all their suggestions for solving the above problems. Please advice work-around. Thanks. Roger
i got the same thing for days on this, go to tools, enternet options click advance tab. go to java uncheck the USE JRE and then right under java is Microsoft VM uncheck the java console, java logging and the jit complier. click apply then recheck the jit complier ONLY. close everything out and restart your computer then sign back in and see if you can play yahoo games,,it worked for me after days of fighting with it.im running XP. Hope this helps...
I have recently come across this problem and after upgrading my JRE to 1.6.0 and still having the issue, I have tracked it down on my machine to the Windows Live Toolbar. I took this off my IE7 browser via View -> Toolbars and now I get no errors triyng to run applets from within the browser.
Perhaps another solution for anybody experiencing this with that toolbar selected.
> When accessing a Java process over the internet, I
> get the message in the subject line. However, I
> don't see any other processes running.
>
> I am running V 1.5.0_06 with a required parameter for
> the web app of "-Xmx512M"
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thanks.
Hello all,
I had the same problem or error message and could not get Java to work.
It was only until I updated both IE and Firefox that it would work. In other words until I updated Java through Firefox which must mean the other virtual machine....anyway problem went away quickly...hope this works for the rest of you...
I still have this problem with XP, IE7 and latest version of JRE.
I noticed that Internet options/General/Browsing History/Settings/View Objects has 3 JRE1.6 objects!
I manually deleted 2 of them but the problem still existed.
I uninstalled and reinstalled the JRE and again 3 objects were there. Shoud there indeed be 3 objects?
This is an existing bug request:
http://bugs.sun.com/bugdatabase/view_bug.do?bug_id=6516270
Providing this information could be handy:
1) Does this occur on all browser(s) which includes Firefox, Mozilla other then Internet Explorer
2) What is the outcome of running testvm applet:
http://java.com/en/download/help/testvm.xml
3) Does this error start appearing after updating to 6u01
4) Have you attempted running the applet after deleting Java Plug-in and browser cache
This could be an issue with memory management on the system.
The possible workaround(s) are:
1) Try setting virtual memory as System managed:
Windows xp users start>control panel>System>advanced->Performance(setting)->Advanced->virtualmemory(change)>Click system managed size>set then Ok restart your computer
2) Set JRE parameter less then 3/4 of actual physical memory present in the system.
For example, 512 MB if RAM is 1024 MB.
3) Disable any unwanted/new/confusing add-on in the browser (IE7).
For example, Windows Live Sign-in add-on can restrict Java functioning due to unknown reasons. Disabling same, if installed could be helpful.
Alright. I believe that this is an installation error. A previous .dll or something is causing the program to mess up. Go to www.ccleaner.com and download the program. Open the program click, "Issues" scan the computer and the program will identify various extensions and .dlls your computer no longer uses. Fix all issues by deleting them and restart internet explorer. The java console will run an update the next time it restarts and viola! Your problem is fixed.
This error can result for a variety of reasons, but this should solve many of them:
On WindowsXP
1.Close all open applications
2.Uninstall all previous versions of Java and Java updates via "Add/Remove Programs" ... Start > Run > control appwiz.cpl
3.Close all open applications
4.Download and install the newest version of CCleaner ... http://www.filehippo.com/download_ccleaner/ once loaded, click on the "Cleaner" button and carefully select which options you want to "clean" (the options will be checked by default; by default CCleaner will empty your recycle bin and delete many preference files, so uncheck all items that you might NOT want to "clean", note that there are two tabs to select from: Windows and Applications) then, click on "Analyze" and "Run Cleaner" (this cleans your temp, preference, log and history files) ... then, click on the "Issues" button and "Scan for Issues" and "Fix selected issues..." (this "cleans" your registry) run the Scan for Issues and Fix selected issues options repeatedly until nothing shows up in the Scan for Issues window (this might take between 2 to 3 cycles).
5.At this point, using CCleaner may or may not have been enough to clean and repair your registry you may have to use various other registry cleaning softwares I recommend using Registry Booster http://www.liutilities.com/products/registrybooster/ you may also consider using Registry Mechanic, but there are a bunch of other good alternatives available.
6.Reboot
7.Close all open applications
8.Download and install the newest version of Java ... http://www.java.com/en/
9.Visit this webpage to verify your fully functional version of Java http://www.javatester.org/version.html
10.If you are still having trouble, you may try disabling browser add-ons one-by-one, to see if one of them is the problem from the Internet Explorer file menu > Tools > Manage Add-ons > Enable or Disable Add-ons > disable one browser add-on at a time (dont forget to re-enable the add-ons that didnt cause problems).
Message was edited by:
gmb1994
Thank you gmb, I ran CCleaner with no result, will now try and follow your helpful instructions. I am not very confidant or knowledgable about computers but will keep trying, It is so infuriating, thanks for your help. I will also try disabling Window live cleaner, when I can find Internet Explorer helper add ons
Smokey
hi, erm im kinda bad at computers. and ive had this problem twice now. so i was wondering if:
1. there is any surefire way to stop this happening now/in the future.
2. what is the xmx thing you mention and where can i find it?
any help would be much appreciated
thanks
dan