career advice
i am currently working as a portal developer at a fortune 500 company. We are using websphere as the application server, WSAD as the IDE, ATG as the portal framework.
Now I have another job offer with almost the same compensation, but a totally different env. They are using Oracle application server, JDeveloper as the IDE, Oracle portal framework.
From a purely technology perspective, what do you java gurus what would be good career move. how would you compare the two env. and which would be a better option and why?
[541 byte] By [
Maite05a] at [2007-10-2 4:59:09]
Your choice of technologies has very little to do with your career advanvcement, all of this will be obsolete by 2011.What is more important is the culture and environment of the workplace. Do you like it where you are? or are you looking for a change for other reasons.
Personally, I'd stay with the Websphere, Oracle makes a great database but their other products tend to leave a lot to be desired. Their oracle universal installer is a perfect example, slow as mud and brain dead (at least as of 10g).
thanx for taking the time to answer. I agree with you as far as the IBM products are concerned, but its ATG which I am not kosher with. and thats where the whole conundrum lies, whether to tradeoff websphere and go start using Oracle products since that would enable you to use ADF instead of ATG.
As far as the work env is concerned I feel the devil you know is better than the devil you dont but ATG is a big question mark as a portal application framework.
any more opinions are welcome
uptil a few years back, weblogic was the app server of choice. Who could have anticipated that websphere could ever be able to overtake it. One smart move from IBM (WSAD opensourcing as exlipse) and websphere here is ahead of weblogic. Does it make a better platform? no. WSAD with all its bells and whistles is one of the slowest IDE's I have ever used. So who knows where oracle app server would be a few years from now.
But keep in mind, Oracle, IBM or BEA they are all to stay, you cant be so sure about ATG. If you compare ADF with ATG its far better and JSR 168 compliant again second only to websphere portal. so that could be a good trade off. as far as the IDE and appservers are concerned the management interfaces for all of them are more or less the same and the IDE's are pretty intuitive. Portal frameworks ATG does not follow the J2EE standards by a long shot. HTH
> From a purely technology perspective, what do you
> java gurus what would be good career move.
The best career move would be to work at the company which has best programmers, and which makes the most advanced things. You usually learn a great deal from good programmers, and it's more attractive to be able to write in your CV that you have done e.g. distributed programming instead of some simple things on an advanced platform. You should also check if the companies will be able to send you to different conferences e.g. JavaOne.
> how would
> you compare the two env. and which would be a better
> option and why?
I wouldn't compare the environments. The most important thing is what you do, and not which tools/platforms you are using.
Kaj
> From a purely technology perspective, what do you> java gurus what would be good career move.Having spend most of the last 40 years doing engineering and research in one form or another I now suggest to people that they take an MBA and move into management.
> > From a purely technology perspective, what do you
> > java gurus what would be good career move.
>
> Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> engineering and research in one form or another I now
> suggest to people that they take an MBA and move into
> management.
:)
I don't want to get into management, so I have now started a (consultant) company of my own.
> > > From a purely technology perspective, what do
> you
> > > java gurus what would be good career move.
> >
> > Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> > engineering and research in one form or another I
> now
> > suggest to people that they take an MBA and move
> into
> > management.
>
> :)
>
> I don't want to get into management, so I have now
> started a (consultant) company of my own.
So did I! I became Technical Director for 6 years and when the company had about 60 employees I was ousted in a board room coup that I did not see coming. I was too 'hands on' being concerned with day to day technical problems as the Technical Leader of the company rather than the Technical Manager of the company. If I had had an MBA then I might have understood my role better.
The coup was orchestrated by an MBA and an Accountant!
I also discovered that when a company has problems the Board always shoot the messenger!
> So did I! I became Technical Director for 6 years and
> when the company had about 60 employees I was ousted
> in a board room coup that I did not see coming. I was
> too 'hands on' being concerned with day to day
> technical problems as the Technical Leader of the
> company rather than the Technical Manager of the
> company. If I had had an MBA then I might have
> understood my role better.
>
> The coup was orchestrated by an MBA and an
> Accountant!
>
> I also discovered that when a company has problems
> the Board always shoot the messenger!
My company will only have one employee, and that's me, and hope that I won't get into arguments with myself :)
> My company will only have one employee, and that's> me, and hope that I won't get into arguments with> myself :):-) Don't be too sure!
> Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> engineering and research in one form or another I now
> suggest to people that they take an MBA and move into
> management.
I would strongly second that. Checkout which company provides with better education reimbursement plan?
> Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> engineering and research in one form or another I now
> suggest to people that they take an MBA and move into
> management.
Consider your advice taken... :o)
(I started an MBA/MSIS program last spring...)
I am planing to take my MBA as well but it seems to be pretty expensive about 400 bucks per credit hour and the companies normally dont pay anything more than 3000-4000 bucks per year in reimbursements. Or is that you got in a better plan?
> I am planing to take my MBA as well but it seems to
> be pretty expensive about 400 bucks per credit hour
> and the companies normally dont pay anything more
> than 3000-4000 bucks per year in reimbursements. Or
> is that you got in a better plan?
Are you stateside? One of the reasons for the reimbursement cap is federal taxes; they kick in around $5250, if I remember correctly. I do have a good plan, though. The company pays 100% (books, tuition, etc.). We get taxed if we go above the cap, but it's worth it to me.
> > Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> > engineering and research in one form or another I
> now
> > suggest to people that they take an MBA and move
> into
> > management.
>
> Consider your advice taken... :o)
>
> (I started an MBA/MSIS program last spring...)
Good for you! I wish I had done this 30 years ago.
> > I am planing to take my MBA as well but it seems
> to
> > be pretty expensive about 400 bucks per credit
> hour
> > and the companies normally dont pay anything more
> > than 3000-4000 bucks per year in reimbursements.
> Or
> > is that you got in a better plan?
>
> Are you stateside? One of the reasons for the
> reimbursement cap is federal taxes; they kick in
> around $5250, if I remember correctly. I do have a
> good plan, though. The company pays 100% (books,
> tuition, etc.). We get taxed if we go above the cap,
> but it's worth it to me.
that sounds great, you are lucky if the company is paying 100%, have always wanted to work for such a company. Best of luck in you endeavours, I am in Indiana north of Indianapolis, the business schools here like Kelly's school of business are pretty expensive and I heard that MBA's are only good if you do it from a good school, so still wondering, hopefully sometime soon.
> > From a purely technology perspective, what do you
> > java gurus what would be good career move.
>
> Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> engineering and research in one form or another I now
> suggest to people that they take an MBA and move into
> management.
Moving into management may be an option but you don't need an MBA for that. What you do need is a gift for spanking people and making them love you for it. -:)
Anyway I think each career move should involve a substantial salary rise. What's wrong with a fat paycheck? You get more challenging and interesting assignments because you're too expensive for menial tasks. You get a higher status within the company and people will seek your opinion. Your higher profile will make you more likely to be "headhunted" which is more likely to result in job offers with an even higher salary. And finally you've got more money to spend which is fun.
> > Having spend most of the last 40 years doing
> > engineering and research in one form or another I
> now
> > suggest to people that they take an MBA and move
> into
> > management.
>
> Moving into management may be an option but you don't
> need an MBA for that. What you do need is a gift for
> spanking people and making them love you for it. -:)
:-) The mind boggles UJ - 'pilling **** on people' is my experience.
>
> Anyway I think each career move should involve a
> substantial salary rise. What's wrong with a fat
> paycheck?
Nothing at all! I watched incompetent MBAs fast tracked to fat pay cheques while competent technical people were taken for granted on a much lower salary.
> You get more challenging and interesting
> assignments because you're too expensive for menial
> tasks. You get a higher status within the company and
> people will seek your opinion.
And then ignore it! But what the hell, for a 'fat paycheck' who cares!
> Your higher profile
> will make you more likely to be "headhunted" which is
> more likely to result in job offers with an even
> higher salary.
And eventually one becomes Tony or George!
> And finally you've got more money to
> spend which is fun.
Yes! When you are told that 'job satisfaction is what counts, not salary' then stop being conned and find a new job. I always found that a substantial part of my getting job satisfaction was a high salary.
> > (I started an MBA/MSIS program last spring...)
>
> Good for you! I wish I had done this 30 years ago.
What most people should have done 30 years ago was to invest in the stock market.
Learn something interesting, be good at it, earn top money, and invest it carefully. That's the way of the "hired hand".
Companies give money to top people and training to the average. If you're offered training instead of a pay rise you've slipped.
> > > (I started an MBA/MSIS program last spring...)
> >
> > Good for you! I wish I had done this 30 years ago.
>
> What most people should have done 30 years ago was to
> invest in the stock market.
>
Well hind sight is 20 20.
> Learn something interesting, be good at it, earn top
> money, and invest it carefully. That's the way of the
> "hired hand".
>
And the top money always goes to the MBA's its unfortunate but true. As somebody mentioned a lot of avg MBA's make more than top notch programmers. Plus you cannot outsource their job to India
> Companies give money to top people and training to
> the average. If you're offered training instead of a
> pay rise you've slipped.
And isnt training the means to get there?
> that sounds great, you are lucky if the company is
> paying 100%, have always wanted to work for such a
> company. Best of luck in you endeavours....
Thanks; I appreciate it. I finished another semester just this week, and I'll have an intersession class in corporate governance before starting up again with the spring semester. It's definitely keeping me busy... :o)
> I am in Indiana north of Indianapolis, the business schools
> here like Kelly's school of business are pretty
> expensive and I heard that MBA's are only good if you
> do it from a good school, so still wondering,
> hopefully sometime soon.
Choice of school does make a difference, IMHO. An MBA from Northwestern carries a little more weight than one from the University of Phoenix Online... :o)
> Choice of school does make a difference, IMHO. An MBA> from Northwestern carries a little more weight than> one from the University of Phoenix Online... :o)Are you a Phoenician as well, Yawmark? Or has word of our little community college spread that far?
> Are you a Phoenician as well, Yawmark? Or has word
> of our little community college spread that far?
I'm in Phoenix but I was under the impression that the University of Phoenix is not just a local thing. Lemme see... Yup, 170 campuses throughout the US.
@yawmark: Are you saying my degree from Hollywood Upstairs Computer School and Furniture Reupholstering Center isn't any good?
I have been out of school for a little over a year and a half now with a BS in Information Systems and I am a programmer. I am planning on starting to get my masters with in the next year but have been undecided on whether to purpsue a MBA or a Masters in Information Systems. From this thread it sounds like most everyone thinks the MBA is the better plan and not a masters in a techonology program, is that correct?
> I have been out of school for a little over a year
> and a half now with a BS in Information Systems and I
> am a programmer. I am planning on starting to get my
> masters with in the next year but have been undecided
> on whether to purpsue a MBA or a Masters in
> Information Systems. From this thread it sounds like
> most everyone thinks the MBA is the better plan and
> not a masters in a techonology program, is that
> correct?
Can't speak for everyone, but I think only you can answer that. There's people who are content writing code and those who are more interested in paycheck size, advancement, etc. (And then there's those who are in between somewhere.) Having an MBA certainly isn't going to hurt (no Dilbert cracks, please), but it may not align with what it is you want out of a career.
Personally the only way I want to have anything to do with management is if it's my own company, so an MBA is something I would pursue if I decided to prepare to go out on my own.
FWIW, your mileage may vary, consult a physician if itching persists, etc.
> Are you a Phoenician as well, Yawmark?
Me, I'm a Cyclone. But the University of Phoenix is one of the largest, most powerful (with respect to lobbying among other things) online learning institutions. It was one of the possiblities I was exploring, but I decided against them when learned that there are no admissions requirements. I've since learned that I don't care for online graduate-level courses, having taken one through my university, so it's probably a good thing I didn't choose the fully online route...
> @yawmark: Are you saying my degree from Hollywood> Upstairs Computer School and Furniture Reupholstering> Center isn't any good?Depends on the ROI, I guess... :o)
> Depends on the ROI, I guess... :o)Well, I've got a couple of really good looking couches...
I recommend you learn mandarin chinese.
