Good age to start

42

floundera at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

Would it be too hard for me right now? And what's a proper way to study?

I plan on buying a Java For Dummies book...

Terry_Ma at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

Yeah, I was just have a bit of fun.

floundera at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

> Would it be too hard for me right now? And what's a

> proper way to study?

>

> I plan on buying a Java For Dummies book...

Same goes for you my friend. There's no such thing as "hard" or "too hard" - you

just have to tackle it with the right interest.

lem@phila at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

Also, if you could find a local guru, a resource you can sit face to face with and bounce ideas off of, that would help tremendously. That often helps decide which programming language to learn.

petes1234a at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

myself, I'm not familiar w/ this situation so I'm afraid that I cannot definitively help you, but from what I understand in your post, it seems that Java should be able to handle it.

petes1234a at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

Does anyone know for sure if Java can do that?

Terry_Ma at 2007-7-28 17:45:28 >

I know, I plan to start very simple, then as I get older I will try more complex things.

Terry_Ma at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

> There's no such thing as

> "hard" or "too hard"

Yes there is. Viagara and too much Viagara.

filestreama at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

No discouragement taken, I wasn't planning to get right into that, just wondering if it could so I could try it with some others several years into the future.

What would you say is a good thing to try out first?

Terry_Ma at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

> > > There's no such thing as

> > > "hard" or "too hard"

> >

> > Yes there is. Viagara and too much Viagara.

>

> Pay no mind to him, Terry. Bit of a sad case. Too

> many bhang lassis:

>

> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lassi#Bhang_lassi

Priapism

http://www.clevelandclinic.org/health/health-info/docs/2900/2908.asp

filestreama at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

I have programmed in a dozen languages and since I started using Java I have not found any problem that I couldn't solve with it. As the core has grown and open source projects have taken off things get easier every day.

Good luck and remember to have fun.

mburns_javaa at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

> > I'm 13 and interested in learning Java. Is this a

> > good age to start?

>

> That's a perfect age to start learning programming.

> You have much time. IMHO, it's better to start with a

> simpler language. When you get familiar with computer

> programming, dive into a complex, powerful and

> professionally used language like Java.

What would you suggest to learn first?

Terry_Ma at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

im 15 dude and actually you learn a lot better as a kid because your brain hasnt gone thru all sorts of changes...why do u think little kids can learn multiple languages no problem and *many* adults struggle?

Message was edited by:

ByronTheOmnipotent

ByronTheOmnipotenta at 2007-7-28 17:45:32 >

> why do u think little kids can learn

> multiple languages no problem and *many* adults

> struggle?

I know very few kids that know multiple languages. I have also seen ***many*** kids struggle with learning a single language.

CaptainMorgan08a at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

i started programming when i was 5

lrngjavaa at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

> > > I'm 13 and interested in learning Java. Is this

> a

> > > good age to start?

> >

> > That's a perfect age to start learning

> programming.

> > You have much time. IMHO, it's better to start with

> a

> > simpler language. When you get familiar with

> computer

> > programming, dive into a complex, powerful and

> > professionally used language like Java.

>

> What would you suggest to learn first?

It depends. If you want to become a professional, I think it's better to start with an old simple language such as Pascal, only to become familiar with programming. So, do not waste your time over it, just play with it a few months. Then, dive into C (not C++) with some extra courage and try to write useful programs with it. When you reach 15, you're already familiar with programming and worked with a real language such as C. It's time to go with Java.

If you start programming with Java, you'll face several problems. For example, as you are not familiar with programming, many aspects of Java may seem illogical to you. IMHO, it is never a good idea to start programming with an object oriented language. I'm 19, started programming with Pascal 5 years ago. I hate it, but it helped me a lot.

Having a C background will definitely help you. You can of course omit Pascal, but I recommend you not to do so. It is worth spending a few months.

jaxiana at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

> It depends. If you want to become a professional, I

> think it's better to start with an old simple

> language such as Pascal, only to become familiar with

> programming.

Yeah, and he should use punch cards too.

petes1234a at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

i think i respectfully disagree Jaxian (that you shouldnt start

with Java). Itll be a lot harder to shoot yourself in the foot or

destroy your computer if youre working within a virtual machine.

Plus learning C or C++ on Windows (like ~90% of the world)

actually means learning Visual C++ and learning Windows more

than anything else - and thats a big enough nightmare to scare off

any beginner.

So unless someone is recommending Logo, lol, I would 100%

recommend Java (or any other OOPL running in a virtual machine)

as a first language.

It is practically impossible to teach good programming style to students that have had prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.

- Edsger Dijkstra

TuringPesta at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

sorry then. i missed the pascal comment.

how about squeak?

http://www.squeak.org/

TuringPesta at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

> I know very few kids that know multiple languages.

Then you probably know very few kids that grow up with deep exposure to multiple languages. Most of the kids I know speak at least two languages.

> I

> have also seen ***many*** kids struggle with learning

> a single language.

You mean proper grammar? That's a different issue. A kid will be as fluent as those around him and will adopt their idioms. Learning the formal rules of the language requires study, which some people don't want to do or are not good at.

jverda at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

> It's actually more important at this point to learn

> the concepts of programming

> than to learn the syntax of a specific language.

I dont think you're giving rote memorization its due credit, lol.

If the whole US educational system is based on it... can it be THAT bad?

TuringPesta at 2007-7-28 17:45:37 >

> I thought he meant programming languages. My bad!

Ohhhhhh.... :-)

Well, one of us was confused I guess.

jverda at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

> After reading a book on Java, I suggest downloading

> the free IDE (Integrated Development Enviornment)

> Eclipse WTP.

I disagree on two points.

1) Don't wait until you've read the book to start programming. Any good book will have examples throughout. Work them as you go through it.

2) Don't start with an IDE. Your initial programs will be small and simple, so you don't need the IDE's features. The IDE will just be another learning curve, and it will be difficult to tell where the IDE ends and the language begins. You also need to learn things that the IDE will gloss over or do for you. Start with a simple text editor or programmer's editor like TextPad or UltraEdit.

jverda at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

> I disagree with your disagreement.

>

> 1) Its too easy to program some "for" loops and think

> that is what's java programming is all about. Java is

> an object oriented program and not structured

> programming. You need some theory beforehand.

For loops are not what Java's all about, but they're present in every Java program of any significance. So read about for loops (theory) and then write a for loop (practice).

Reading about for loops, constructors, parent/child relationships, encapsulation, polymorphism, lists, trees, arrays, and THEN starting to write code would prevent you from cementing any of the theory with practice, so you'd have to go back and start over.

> 2) I still suggest an IDE because programming on the

> command line is boring.

Maybe, but that's small price to pay to learn the fundamentals.

> You also

> would like a fancy display enviornment to work on

> hour after hour than a command line.

I didn't say edit on the command line. We're not doing echo > Foo.java. Edit with a programming editor, and then compile on the command line.

> I dont think

> you will get bogged down on IDE configuration issues

> if your just creating some java classes and not a

> full blown web site.

Then you haven't seen some of the many questions people post here doing just that.

jverda at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

> What are ya'all trying to do, scare him into

> accounting?

Quite the contrary. I'm trying to help his learning experience go more smoothly.

jverda at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

you know i wish, i was still that young... :) learning things while you're still fresh :) ... it's really a good chance to take advance on learning java.. it's better because, you'll gain experience at that early stage.. and you will find more easily to cope other problems when you grew up.. i'm not as young as you (22) but i'm still working to learn it. For me, it is much better to know different things early than lately.. :)

strider_hiryu007a at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

I still want to learn it, but now I'm convinced it's grotesquely hard.

Terry_Ma at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

> I still want to learn it, but now I'm convinced it's

> grotesquely hard.

No it's not, not if you do it one step at a time. With work you will be creating some pretty cool code in a few weeks or less depending on your abilities and motivation.

petes1234a at 2007-7-28 17:45:42 >

> I'm 13 and interested in learning Java. Is this a

> good age to start?

The best age to start is at about 84. You won't neither go all grey or lose any hair about programming, you won't mind that it's not a good way to impress the girls, you're likely to die before you get swamped in all those frameworks, and nobody expects you to actually solve their problems, so you can code what you want to...

CeciNEstPasUnProgrammeura at 2007-7-28 17:45:46 >

> I still want to learn it, but now I'm convinced it's

> grotesquely hard.

When I was 13 I found many examples in my programming book very hard and that was a book about BASIC which is simpler then Java. But that was simply because I was lacking all the background knowledge. Over time it became easier and easier and when I started learning Java, I undertood the basics very quickly. The only problem was learning how to use object oriented programming effectively.

It seems so hard because there are so many details and so many rules to learn. You just need to learn it one by one.

To get started try this:

After installing the java jdk (jdk 6 update 2 is the latest one), install BlueJ - www.bluej.org.

BlueJ is used by many schools to teach Java.

Start BlueJ and then click on Project / new Project

Give your project a name like e.g. "FirstProject"

Then click on "New Class" and again choose a name e.g. "FirstClass"

Then a box with the title "FirstClass" will appear.

Double click on it and you will see the source code.

Delete everything and replace it with this:

import java.awt.*;

import javax.swing.*;

public class FirstClass

{

public static void main(String[] args) {

}

}

This is your source code frame. You don't need to understand it yet. Just ignore it and put your programs after the line "public static void main(String[] args) {".

Your first program could be this

System.out.println("Test");

System.out.println(1+2);

Insert that into your frame.

import java.awt.*;

import javax.swing.*;

public class FirstClass

{

public static void main(String[] args) {

System.out.println("Test");

System.out.println(1+2);

}

}

BTW. It doesn't matter how many spaces you put in front of a line. Empty lines don't matter either. It's just to make the text easier to read.

Now click on compile..

Then right click on the "FirstClass" box in the main window of BlueJ and click on "void main(String[] args)" and then on OK to start the program.

All this will do is print the two lines

Test

3

You can then add more System.out.println() lines to the source code to see what happens.

For the next step you can try to display a window.

import java.awt.*;

import javax.swing.*;

public class FirstClass

{

public static void main(String[] args) {

JFrame frame1=new JFrame("Test");

frame1.setSize(300,300);

frame1.setVisible(true);

}

}

new JFrame("Test") creates a new window with the text "Test" in it's title bar. The new window is invisible at first.

JFrame frame1=new JFrame("Test");

creates a new window and gives it the name frame1 so you can do things to it later in the program.

frame1.setSize(300,300);

Sets the size of the window to 300 x 300 pixel.

frame1.setVisible(true);

makes the window visible.

Now a little bit more complicated

import java.awt.*;

import javax.swing.*;

public class FirstClass

{

public static void main(String[] args) {

JFrame frame1=new JFrame("Test");

frame1.setLayout(new GridLayout());

frame1.getContentPane().add(new JLabel("Type something"));

frame1.getContentPane().add(new JTextField());

frame1.getContentPane().add(new JButton("OK"));

frame1.getContentPane().add(new JButton("Cancel"));

frame1.setVisible(true);

frame1.pack();

}

}

Now this is probably confusing. But you will understand it eventually once you know enough.

SpiderPiga at 2007-7-28 17:45:46 >

I just thought it would be nice to have a GUI example. But you're right, It's much better and easier to first use text mode only and start with GUI's once you're familiar with the language.

SpiderPiga at 2007-7-28 17:45:46 >

> Starting with GUIs is a really bad idea. You'll be

> all wrapped up in getting the GUI to work and look

> like you want and you won't realy be focussing on the

> fundamentals of the language, the core libraries, or

> computer science.

More so, your GUI won't work because you missed some important design rules, and people will hate using it because you have no idea about ergonomics.

CeciNEstPasUnProgrammeura at 2007-7-28 17:45:46 >