My Take on JavaFX
I started a swing project recently and since I don't have that much experience with swing since I am mainly a server side java programmer, I searched a bit about JavaFx. I don't really know why it was called javaFx in the first place, it seems a bit odd to call it java anything since the only thing it shares with the java programming language is the jvm. I think they are a bit late in the game, why try to reinvent the wheel when the wheel exists already. Html was very successfull in the past and Xhtml is going that way too, so instead of releasing a new scripting languages that does not resemble java in any way why not get a new way of mixing java and xhtml to run anywhere. I thought about JavaFx as a replacement to swing in the long term, but after facing it I am not that sure. It could have been much better...
In my opinion javaFx is not a big deal after all, too much hype about just another scripting language...
MeTitus
[957 byte] By [
Me_Titusa] at [2007-11-27 11:57:23]
My understanding is that JavaFX is not a Swing replacement, but a way to create UI's with Swing via a simpler scripting language. Maybe you should stay away from Groovy, while your at it.
As for reinventing the wheel, why do we need Java when C++ was perfectly suitable for creating applications?
I'm not sure what you mean by mixing Java and XHTML, though. You want XHtML for display? Use JSP/servlets. You want to define Swing UI's using XHTML-like language? There are packages for defining Swing UI's as XML.
XHTML is an XML formalization of HTML, which frankly should've been the first version, but whatever. If you told me I'd have to recreate with XHTML the application that I currently support, I'd throw you off the top of my building.
[nobr]Ok we had C++ and a few other ones, but java come up with very nice things, such as garbage collector and it freed the community from the use of pointers...
Now in relation to jsp/servlets how are you going to get that working in a J2ME device, because I was refering to that.
What I meant to say was:
The idea of portabilitty is something that has been related to java since the begining, so it was very nice if I could write an application in swing and run it in a J2ME device for eg. JavaFx allows that but, what about all the programmers that have been working with Swing for so long, and before that with awt? Today we have swing components that accept html for eg:
JButton objButton = new JButton("<br>A<br>B")
And there are some many html/xhtml rendering engines nowadays. Thus I think Sun should have followed with path instead of comming up with a new programming language. If I was someone very experience with swing and was asked to do some kind of application that had to run in the desktop and a J2ME device what options would I have? Sun should have used html/xhtml and clued that together with swing, and create maybe light swings, that would use html to render on all devices and still use java as we like. Of course I am not talking about web applications here.
MeTitus[/nobr]
> Ok we had C++ and a few other ones, but java come up
> with very nice things, such as garbage collector and
> it freed the community from the use of pointers...
Um, just for the record: Java wasnt the language that invented
GC or OOP. Nor was it the language that first brought those things
to the world.
Its predecessors were wonderful languages like Smalltalk.
Look at "influenced by"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_language)
> > Ok we had C++ and a few other ones, but java come
> up
> > with very nice things, such as garbage collector
> and
> > it freed the community from the use of pointers...
>
> Um, just for the record: Java wasnt the language that
> invented
> GC or OOP. Nor was it the language that first brought
> those things
> to the world.
>
> Its predecessors were wonderful languages like
> Smalltalk.
>
> Look at "influenced by"
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_(programming_languag
> e)
;)
I know java wasn't the first but I know that the world we have today would not be the same without java. I just want it to last forever, but respecting the community, not following other and creating stup**** things.
MeTitus
> stup**** things.
you dont have to self-censor the word stupid, lol.
(we wont tell your parents)
But youre right, Java did a great job popularizing a
pretty solid programming environment.
> > stup**** things.
>
> you dont have to self-censor the word stupid, lol.
We never know... I heard of people mysteriously losing theirs accounts... ;)
MeTitus
> As for reinventing the wheel, why do we need Java
> when C++ was perfectly suitable for creating
> applications?
Because C++ is prehistoric! Compare C++ standard libraries to Java API. You also have to be a good programmer to write applicaitons in C++. Not to mention the memory issues. Oh, and parallel processing. I don't think I need to go much farther here.
No, I'm not so sure C++ IS suitable for creating applications (at least the type of stuff I work on). I'm sure I'll get flamed for saying that because technically you could use C++ to write any app. But take eBay for example, imagine they tried to write that in C++. My God! Imagine the pain and suffering!!!!
Think about it: People are working more hours at their jobs, applications are more complex, development cycles are shorter, releases/deployments happen more often. We are evolving quickly and Java was NECESSARY. Just like cars were necessary. Sure, you can ride a horse to work every day, it's possible, but there's lots of problems and you won't get there fast.
> But take eBay for example, imagine they tried to
> write that in C++. My God! Imagine the pain and
> suffering!!!!
There are many web site I know of that still use CGI/C++, but of course that is no option knowadays...
> Just like cars were necessary.
> Sure, you can ride a horse to work every day, it's
> possible, but there's lots of problems and you won't
> get there fast.
Think of Holland... Cars doenst mean faster, I know what I am talking about here lol...
Buy yeah I agree with what you said, java was really need, it is todays language and it is going to be tomorrows too, unless it continues to do mistakes like the ones it is doing now witn JavaFX.
Maybe sun is thinking that with an easy scripting language it can bring more users to use java, but it must be really worried into keeping the ones it has already ;)
MeTitus
> > But take eBay for example, imagine they tried to
> > write that in C++. My God! Imagine the pain and
> > suffering!!!!
>
> There are many web site I know of that still use
> CGI/C++, but of course that is no option
> knowadays...
I shall pray for those developers. Poor bastards...
> > Just like cars were necessary.
> > Sure, you can ride a horse to work every day, it's
> > possible, but there's lots of problems and you
> won't
> > get there fast.
>
> Think of Holland... Cars doenst mean faster, I know
> what I am talking about here lol...
True, but in a drag race, the horse is going to be glue.
> Buy yeah I agree with what you said, java was really
> need, it is todays language and it is going to be
> tomorrows too, unless it continues to do mistakes
> like the ones it is doing now witn JavaFX.
> Maybe sun is thinking that with an easy scripting
> language it can bring more users to use java, but it
> must be really worried into keeping the ones it has
> already ;)
Sun has its head so far up its a$$ it's not ever going to come out. Sun will continue to make terrible, terrible mistakes. Luckily, Java is so awesome that nobody, not even Sun's black thumb, can kill it.
> > There are many web site I know of that still use
> > CGI/C++, but of course that is no option
> > knowadays...
>
> I shall pray for those developers. Poor bastards...
I wished some prayed for me as well when a few months back I was
developping a web server for a CLDC device... like those c++ developers I had to implement sessions and all those sort of things..
> True, but in a drag race, the horse is going to be
> glue.
Hahaha we cannot compare apples with orange here...
> Sun has its head so far up its a$$ it's not ever
> going to come out. Sun will continue to make
> terrible, terrible mistakes. Luckily, Java is so
> awesome that nobody, not even Sun's black thumb, can
> kill it.
Sun is not even good at doing $$, look at how many companies use java which have more market value tha Sun.. oracle and google are good example of that.
> Because C++ is prehistoric!
And you base this opinion on...what?
> Compare C++ standard libraries to Java API.
Yes, in several cases the C++ standard library is much more elegant than Java's equivalent. For instance Java's java.io API is pretty much a poor copy of the original C API, while the I/O stream library of C++ has taken a step forward.
> You also have to be a good programmer to write applicaitons in C++.
Are you implying that in Java you can create non-trivial applications without actually understanding what you are doing? I disagree.
> Not to mention the memory issues.
What memory issues? Are you not aware that you can have advanced garbage collectors also in C++ programs?
> Oh, and parallel processing.
There are several libraries and APIs you can choose from.
> I don't think I need to go much farther here.
>
Oh, please do.
I cannot argue too much in this subject, but when he was saying this:
> > Not to mention the memory issues.
I thought he was refering to issues with pointers...
MeTitus
> > Because C++ is prehistoric!
>
> And you base this opinion on...what?
Based on it's a generation old. Are you joking? Get with it!
> > Compare C++ standard libraries to Java API.
>
> Yes, in several cases the C++ standard library is
> much more elegant than Java's equivalent. For
> instance Java's java.io API is pretty much a poor
> copy of the original C API, while the I/O stream
> library of C++ has taken a step forward.
Now I know you're joking. There's no way I'd choose to do IO in any other language than Java!
>
> > You also have to be a good programmer to write
> applicaitons in C++.
>
> Are you implying that in Java you can create
> non-trivial applications without actually
> understanding what you are doing? I disagree.
I'm not sure what you're smoking. No offense. But really, you're not fishing in the same stream of consciousness as the rest of us here. Java (as a high-level language) is vastly more simple to program than C++.
> > Not to mention the memory issues.
>
> What memory issues? Are you not aware that you can
> have advanced garbage collectors also in C++
> programs?
The vast majority of bugs (in the entire history of C++ apps) are due to memory management issues. Please don't try to rewrite history or act like that's not the case. This one factor alone was HUGE in propelling Java to the top. That said, you may have some awesome C++ platform and libraries that abstract you from some of these problems, but you're not talking about C++, you're talking about libraries and extensions.
>
> > Oh, and parallel processing.
>
> There are several libraries and APIs you can choose
> from.
>
> > I don't think I need to go much farther here.
> >
> Oh, please do.
I'm not going to waste my time if you don't understand the extreme advantages of using Java when running multi-threaded, multi-CPU, clustered apps, etc.
To illustrate my earlier point, that's you on C++ (that cell phone has Java on it and you know it!):
http://www.break.com/pictures/jul25gal27.html
Oh, please don't be off-topicing.
I didn't even wet my tip of toe with JavaFX. But my years-long concern for Java is of the same vein as that of Bruce Eckel who has practically abondoned Java platform and is now advocating Flash/Flex as the standard and principal environment for internet development. In short, Java is, has been, short for rich media development and deployment .
We have seen so many posts of type "could we do xxx in Java?" on the forum, while Java can't do the xxx or needs proprietary libs to do. I am quite tired of that. I have an anticipation on JavaFX as a big healer or savior.
hiwaa at 2007-7-29 19:13:29 >
> Oh, please don't be off-topicing.
>
> I didn't even wet my tip of toe with JavaFX. But my
> years-long concern for Java is of the same vein as
> that of Bruce Eckel who has practically abondoned
> Java platform and is now advocating Flash/Flex as the
> standard and principal environment for internet
> development. In short, Java is, has been, short for
> rich media development and deployment .
If Flash or any other competing technologies had anything on Java it would happened by now, no?
> We have seen so many posts of type "could we do xxx
> in Java?" on the forum, while Java can't do the xxx
> or needs proprietary libs to do. I am quite tired of
> that. I have an anticipation on JavaFX as a big
> healer or savior.
xxx in Java? hmmm, Java and pr0n? why didn't I think of that!?
> If Flash or any other competing technologies had anything on Java
> it would happened by now, no?
So Bruce Eckel converted to Flash and Sun hastily announced JavaFX in defense.
See demos at https://openjfx.dev.java.net/
hiwaa at 2007-7-29 19:13:34 >
> There are many web site I know of that still use
> CGI/C++, but of course that is no option
> knowadays...
>
Why not? There's nothing wrong with Perl (well, that may be stretching things a bit), C and C++...
> Think of Holland... Cars doenst mean faster, I know
> what I am talking about here lol...
>
yah.
>
> Buy yeah I agree with what you said, java was really
> need, it is todays language and it is going to be
> tomorrows too, unless it continues to do mistakes
> like the ones it is doing now witn JavaFX.
> Maybe sun is thinking that with an easy scripting
> language it can bring more users to use java, but it
> must be really worried into keeping the ones it has
> already ;)
>
Sun is (and has been for some years) completely marketing driven by their decisions about what to do to Java.
If you look at the featurelist of the 1.6 and 1.7 releases that becomes painfully clear.
Just about everything that's being done is done for no other reason than that it's something that's a high visibility feature in some other language therefore it MUST be in Java as well.
And with the release of the sourcecode under GPL (itself driven completely and solely by marketing concerns) it will only get worse as they'll be pressured even more to add everything and the kitchen sink under perceived threat of seeing some other distribution add that and (or so they think) become more popular and taking away Sun's market share and control over the language.
This will make Java next to completely useless as a serious programming language if no stop is put to it.
As it is a LOT of people have decided that 1.5 (or even 1.4) is the last version they'll use, as 1.6 is already very near the treshold of becoming just another grabbag of useless "features", and at least for processes that need to run for a long time (servers mainly) it's been shown to be unstable as well (we had some servers running experimentally on 1.6, all are being rolled back to 1.5 for stability reasons, and strangely attempts to get 1.6 to run on Solaris 64 bit were less than successful, you'd say Sun would make it easy on their own platform).
> > If Flash or any other competing technologies had
> anything on Java
> > it would happened by now, no?
> So Bruce Eckel converted to Flash and Sun hastily
> announced JavaFX in defense.
> See demos at https://openjfx.dev.java.net/
sure looked like it. Yet another Me2! decision on the part of Sun marketing, rather than rational decision making.
i still dont get javafx at all.
ive read a few sites and blogs but ive failed to read a single
explanation that points out its niche or why i would be interested
in it. what is it for? flash like web content?
well nuts to that.
java could DEFINE the desktop.
but of course they half tried then gave up.
my mental list of desktop programs that could be done better
and faster with java has thrown a stack overflow.
the problem is an entire generation of stupid kids who think that
computers = internet = aol = IM & email. as much as they try
to push this network centric & "web 2.0" stuff... grrrr.
jwenting, you are 100% right about the "feature" additions.
java's genius is how clear it is to read and write.
You have classes and interfaces and single inheritance.
You have methods and variables.
Period.
Its beautiful. Its revolutionarily simple.
(Id even like to see the end of primitives but i wont rant like a crazy
person, lol!)
No pointers. No operator overloading - WYSIWYG. Its immediately
understandable.
Static imports and autoboxing work against this (yea yea i know
everyone loves autoboxing).
I cant even imagine what they are planning on adding.
Closures? Im ABSOLUTELY IN LOVE with closures and function
pointers but I dont know if id love them in Java.
In the near future work place, we absolutely need to dissolve the scission between 'designers' and 'developers'. In other words, we need integration or unification of both roles. One should have both techniques of knowing/representing business logic and representing most natural and proper content. I hope JavaFX can give a substantial thing to the next generation young people to bring the integration.
hiwaa at 2007-7-29 19:13:34 >
> Oh, please don't be off-topicing.
>
> I didn't even wet my tip of toe with JavaFX. But my
> years-long concern for Java is of the same vein as
> that of Bruce Eckel who has practically abondoned
> Java platform and is now advocating Flash/Flex as the
> standard and principal environment for internet
> development. In short, Java is, has been, short for
> rich media development and deployment .
>
> We have seen so many posts of type "could we do xxx
> in Java?" on the forum, while Java can't do the xxx
> or needs proprietary libs to do. I am quite tired of
> that. I have an anticipation on JavaFX as a big
> healer or savior.
I never thought of java as a rich media development plattaform... flash is in a completelly diferent scoope than that of ava. Java in my opinion is one of the most stable and scalable plataforms for server development. I dont' think that sun should follow the others... instead of trying to do what Microsoft is also doing, trying to create a competitor to flash, it should concentrate its efforts on improving what in my opinion is the best programming language Java.
MeTitus
> In the near future work place, we absolutely need to
> dissolve the scission between 'designers' and
> 'developers'. In other words, we need integration or
> unification of both roles. One should have both
> techniques of knowing/representing business logic and
> representing most natural and proper content. I hope
> JavaFX can give a substantial thing to the next
> generation young people to bring the integration.
No no and no.
I dont agree with that and I dont want that to happen. I am a developper not a designer... I can't understand your point here... The roles should be well defined, and I dont believe one should do it all. I dont think that many programmers around the world would feel confortable in designing instead of programming... stuying too much and then ending up doing design stuff....
One of the key sucesses of java was due to its capability of creating platafroms which allows for the well defenition of each role, think of mvc...
Designers do what they do best and progammers do what they do best as well.
MeTitus
> i still dont get javafx at all.
>
> ive read a few sites and blogs but ive failed to read
> a single
> explanation that points out its niche or why i would
> be interested
> in it. what is it for? flash like web content?
> well nuts to that.
>
> java could DEFINE the desktop.
> but of course they half tried then gave up.
>
> my mental list of desktop programs that could be done
> better
> and faster with java has thrown a stack overflow.
>
> the problem is an entire generation of stupid kids
> who think that
> computers = internet = aol = IM & email. as much as
> they try
> to push this network centric & "web 2.0" stuff...
> grrrr.
I am with you... I don't get it at all.
MeTitus
> > In the near future work place, we absolutely need
> to
> > dissolve the scission between 'designers' and
> > 'developers'. In other words, we need integration
> or
> > unification of both roles. One should have both
> > techniques of knowing/representing business logic
> and
> > representing most natural and proper content. I
> hope
> > JavaFX can give a substantial thing to the next
> > generation young people to bring the integration.
>
> No no and no.
>
> I dont agree with that and I dont want that to
> happen. I am a developper not a designer... I can't
> understand your point here... The roles should be
> well defined, and I dont believe one should do it
> all. I dont think that many programmers around the
> world would feel confortable in designing instead of
> programming... stuying too much and then ending up
> doing design stuff....
>
> One of the key sucesses of java was due to its
> capability of creating platafroms which allows for
> the well defenition of each role, think of mvc...
>
> Designers do what they do best and progammers do what
> they do best as well.
>
> MeTitus
The biggest eg I can give you that shows exactly what I am talking about is Linux. I use it has my main and only os nowadays, but I was an windows user before. One of the main different between both os apart from the Linux superiority in all ways, it was the design. Linux distributions and desktop managers didnt have designers so programmers were doing what the do best but they were also doing design which obviously is not what they do best. Today that is chaging and for good, gnome, kde desktop managers are improving thanks to the aid of avid designers.
MeTitus
> One of the main different between both os apart from
> the Linux superiority in all ways
That's laughable. I can't do half the stuff in Linux that I can on Windoze (or Mac). The only installs of Linux I know of are people that play with it on their old computers or (professionally) web servers (which is VERY, VERY rare). Almost everyone is running Windows or Mac now and in the web/app server space (where I work) it's all Windows/Solaris.
> > One of the main different between both os apart
> from
> > the Linux superiority in all ways
>
> That's laughable. I can't do half the stuff in Linux
> that I can on Windoze (or Mac). The only installs of
> Linux I know of are people that play with it on their
> old computers or (professionally) web servers (which
> is VERY, VERY rare). Almost everyone is running
> Windows or Mac now and in the web/app server space
> (where I work) it's all Windows/Solaris.
We are not going to start a a linux/windows discassion here, but you must be jocking... Unix was is and its going to be the best os for a long time and linux is going to follow. When did windows started to be a true multrithreaded system? Oh i forgot it never did, when the gui/explorer crashes I have no other option then restart... Unix on the other part was design to be multi threaded since the biggining.... Linux rules.
MeTitus
> That's laughable. I can't do half the stuff in Linux
> that I can on Windoze (or Mac).
Although this is leading off topic I would be interested to know what you mean by the above, can you give examples of these things you can't do?
> > That's laughable. I can't do half the stuff in
> Linux
> > that I can on Windoze (or Mac).
>
> Although this is leading off topic I would be
> interested to know what you mean by the above, can
> you give examples of these things you can't do?
Yeah I would like to know that as well.
MeTitus
> > > That's laughable. I can't do half the stuff in
> > Linux
> > > that I can on Windoze (or Mac).
> >
> > Although this is leading off topic I would be
> > interested to know what you mean by the above, can
> > you give examples of these things you can't do?
>
> Yeah I would like to know that as well.
Can't run MS Office?
JavaFX ... It looks to me like it's a very small start at making a Java-based system that is analogous to Flash. However, it seems it's got a long way to go to be competitive.
Designers and developers can certainly overlap. And designers may do a lot more "development" work with Flash or HTML, but that is not common for Java or C++.
> > > > That's laughable. I can't do half the stuff in
> > > Linux
> > > > that I can on Windoze (or Mac).
> > >
> > > Although this is leading off topic I would be
> > > interested to know what you mean by the above,
> can
> > > you give examples of these things you can't do?
> >
> > Yeah I would like to know that as well.
>
> Can't run MS Office?
>
> JavaFX ... It looks to me like it's a very small
> start at making a Java-based system that is analogous
> to Flash. However, it seems it's got a long way to
> go to be competitive.
>
> Designers and developers can certainly overlap. And
> designers may do a lot more "development" work with
> Flash or HTML, but that is not common for Java or C++.
One thing I can say for sure, javaFx isn't target for "normal" java programmer, maybe you are right and java is trying to do the same as Microsoft, running after the flash community, but I honestly can't see those guys switching from flash to other technology. Like I said before I dont think Sun is doing the right think, but again who I am to say this. I just hope java gets even better and I know I am better off javaFx.
MeTitus
> We are not going to start a a linux/windows
> discassion here, but you must be jocking... Unix was
> is and its going to be the best os for a long time
> and linux is going to follow. When did windows
> started to be a true multrithreaded system? Oh i
> forgot it never did, when the gui/explorer crashes I
> have no other option then restart... Unix on the
> other part was design to be multi threaded since the
> biggining.... Linux rules.
Unix/Linux is a better OS, sure. But those Os's are just about completely unsupported. You'd have to be a ***** to think that they are worth a ****! If you do, I pity you!!!
> completely unsupported
Nobody would say any MS product been well-supported ever.
Linux community-support is far much better than MS non-support.
I can say that from my own long experience.
I've been MSing since 1970s and Linuxing since 1990s.
hiwaa at 2007-7-29 19:13:38 >
> > We are not going to start a a linux/windows
> > discassion here, but you must be jocking... Unix
> was
> > is and its going to be the best os for a long time
> > and linux is going to follow. When did windows
> > started to be a true multrithreaded system? Oh i
> > forgot it never did, when the gui/explorer crashes
> I
> > have no other option then restart... Unix on the
> > other part was design to be multi threaded since
> the
> > biggining.... Linux rules.
>
> Unix/Linux is a better OS, sure. But those Os's are
> just about completely unsupported. You'd have to be a
> ***** to think that they are worth a ****! If you do,
> I pity you!!!
Give it a try and then check for your self if they are worth. I used to use Windows only then about one year ago a switch completely, never looked back. I am in ubuntu go get it.
MeTitus
