Java salaries and career paths
I've been asking myself if its really worth it to go for a bachelor's degree on my country, problem is that there's no software engeneering or computer science career, instead there's a system engeneering and ITT(i dont know how to say it in english :( ! does telematica sound any familiar >_>; ).
Instead i've started to study for certifications such as CCNA and SCJP, i plan on being a CCIE on Routing and Switching and get my ME certification since i'm interested in cellphone apps ^_^.
So far i'm doing good on both cert paths, but some people tell me that you need a bachelor's degree to "be someone", and i think thats a strange comment to say, since some of the richest people in the world didn't even finish college.
Anyway, question is, is it better to have various certifications or to have a bachelor's degree, and if i don't get a bachelor's degree but i get really good certifications, will i gain more money or will i be able to be competitive?
I'm 20 years old and i found out what i really like this year(some people don't even find what they really like on a lifetime), but what i don't want to do is to take a path where i won't be successful nor competitive.
Also, last but not least, how much are you guys gaining being java programmers, did your bachelor's degree really helped you out? Or is it just a superficial title that let's you work on large companies.
[1443 byte] By [
Rix87a] at [2007-11-27 8:28:06]
i love programming. i am gaining everything.my degree _really_ helped me get a job. i put my resume on monster and got calls the next day.
> So far i'm doing good on both cert paths, but some
> people tell me that you need a bachelor's degree to
> "be someone", and i think thats a strange comment to
> say, since some of the richest people in the world
> didn't even finish college.
The tiny minority. And you take away the ones who didn't finish college and who weren't born rich, then it's a far tinier number.
Bill Gates is often held as an example of a kid who dropped out of college and became rich, but he was from a wealthy family with some very useful connections to exploit.
> Anyway, question is, is it better to have various
> certifications or to have a bachelor's degree, and if
> i don't get a bachelor's degree but i get really good
> certifications, will i gain more money or will i be
> able to be competitive?
I don't know what it's like where you're from, but in the US you're better off with a bachelor's degree. But the certs are probably better than nothing.
> I'm 20 years old and i found out what i really like
> this year(some people don't even find what they
> really like on a lifetime), but what i don't want to
> do is to take a path where i won't be successful nor
> competitive.
You know...I majored in a field that would pay well (computer science major, bachelor's degree), and it's certainly paid off, but now that I'm past the midpoint of my life I keep thinking about missed opportunities and the fact that I may never do the things I really wanted to do. My plan to get rich in tech and then fund the cool things, didn't pay off. I'm comfortable, but I'll probably die thinking "I wish I had done...". But then I guess everyone does.
> Also, last but not least, how much are you guys
> gaining being java programmers, did your bachelor's
> degree really helped you out? Or is it just a
> superficial title that let's you work on large
> companies.
Here in the US anyway, a bachelor's degree is often used to separate the wheat from the chaff. You don't have to have one, but it sure helps, in all kinds of companies.
> The tiny minority. And you take away the ones who
> didn't finish college and who weren't born
> rich, then it's a far tinier number.
>
You need money to make money. Without rich parents the only way to get that initial capital is these days crime (with taxes taking away everything you earn except the bare minimum to stay alive and banks not risking their investors' money on unknowns).
> Bill Gates is often held as an example of a kid who
> dropped out of college and became rich, but he was
> from a wealthy family with some very useful
> connections to exploit.
>
And anyway, he didn't drop out of college, he dropped out of MIT.
And even getting admitted to MIT is worth almost as much as a degree from many other universities...
>
> I don't know what it's like where you're from, but in
> the US you're better off with a bachelor's degree.
> But the certs are probably better than nothing.
>
Get both, but start with that degree.
> things I really wanted to do. My plan to get rich in
> tech and then fund the cool things, didn't pay off.
> I'm comfortable, but I'll probably die thinking "I
> wish I had done...". But then I guess everyone
> does.
Indeed. Even people who could do whatever they wanted to.
> > Also, last but not least, how much are you guys
> > gaining being java programmers, did your
> bachelor's
> > degree really helped you out? Or is it just a
> > superficial title that let's you work on large
> > companies.
>
> Here in the US anyway, a bachelor's degree is often
> used to separate the wheat from the chaff. You don't
> have to have one, but it sure helps, in all kinds of
> companies.
An education teaches you more skills than just the ones on the curiculum.
General problem solving, independent thinking (well, getting less with the ever increasing communist indoctrination in our universities), and others are far more important than the rote knowledge you learn from those books.
The actual degree itself thus often matters less than the fact that you have a degree at all.
As a result the majority of people in the field have unrelated (or only loosely related) degrees. Mathematics, physics, and biology are the most common here, with a smittering of chemists and mechanical engineers.
The best hacker I know has a PHD in mathematics and a couple of other degrees in philosophy and history. He started helping out the computer geeks when he was tutoring... way back in the punched card days, and found that he had a flair for the kind of problem solving involved in computer programming, so he started to have a bit of fun with it.... He's still having fun with it 30 odd years later, as a well paid IT contractor, and has never had a days formal training in IT... well he once had a 1 day special high intensity remedial course on filling out timesheets.... and now he gets me to do them. Hmmm.
Smart and interested beats well trained... but for us mere mortal who aren't that smart, or are more interested in procreation, the training is invaluable.
Cheers, Keith.
A formal education always seems to be better at actually getting you into a job. I've only got a diploma, but I got a good job offer while waiting to continue to a degree, and didn't see the need to carry on, but I'd still recommend getting a degree. The problem with professional certificates is their perceived worth varies so much from employer to employer, whereas a degree will carry much the same weight with everyone. A lot of employers are of the opinion that SCJP isn't worth jack, for example
> a degree will carry much the same weight with everyone
Yeah, I suppose you're right... there's a double standard operating in the public sector in Australia at the moment (I suppose it was ever thus)... whereby an IT professional must be degree qualified to get a seat as a public servant, but a contractor can get in the door without one... but must be able to actaully DO the job to keep his seat.
IMHO, very few public servants in IT would keep their seats as contractors, but the permies are uniformly well qualified.
Hence, my somewhat jaded view of the value of formal education & qualifications.
Nothing beats raw talent.
Thanks for the answers, i'll start working on my degree after i get both certifications, hopefuly on January... that way i can get an IT-related job and get some experience while i get the degree, all i want is to get my independence asap, but rushing it all won't help me much.
And if its not too much to ask, is it possible to work 6-8 hours daily AND follow a pensum ? Or is it too hard to do so on Comp-related careers.
Rix87a at 2007-7-12 20:17:58 >
Hi,
I completed most of my degree online while deployed to Afghanistan in the US Army. It all depends on what else you have going on (family, friends). You can definitely do it if you have the discipline and dedication. Currently, I am working as an overseas contractor for 12 hours a day and still pursuing (fulltime) two Master's Degrees. Not everyone can do it and it requires A LOT of time management skills, but depending on what else you have going on, it is definitely possible.
Also, where I live in the US, certifications aren't worth much. A degree is far more important. I hope that helps!
Kevin
> > Bill Gates is often held as an example of a kid
> who
> > dropped out of college and became rich, but he was
> > from a wealthy family with some very useful
> > connections to exploit.
>
> And anyway, he didn't drop out of college, he dropped
> out of MIT.
> And even getting admitted to MIT is worth almost as
> much as a degree from many other universities...
I think it was Harvard actually. Despite his bad haircut, Bill Gates is more a financier than a techie, it seems.
Hello,
I wish to say thank you for all the comments. You guys have not only helped refocus the efforts of Rix87 but also those of many people including me. I read all the responses with keen interest. I graduated from the university in 1992 (Electrical engineering). I worked in the construction industry for eleven years before returning to school last February to pursue MSc in Computer Networking. I have just completed one semester. I must say that it has been a struggle so far. Many times I have asked myself questions similar to what Rix87 asked. From the various comments above, I now have a more balanced idea of what the issues are.
To Rix87, I say please, get all the training and education you can get while you are still young and "free". It almost always require bending over backwards to get them at an advanced age.
Regards,
ue-Joe
Thanks Kevin, that sure helped, i'm setting my courses to the morning shift and going to try and get a part-time job as an IT tech or an english customer service agent (Yes, its not only India that has a lot of those hidden faking to be U.S.A located services!), its going to be classes from 9am to 1pm Monday through Thursday and Saturdays from 9am to 6pm, and then working from 5 to 11 or something from Monday through Friday, i'll give it a try since i like what i'm studying, and rarely, i don't get tired of it.
>get all the training and education you can get while you are still young and >"free". It almost always require bending over backwards to get them at an >advanced age.
Yea my dad used to tell me that a lot back in the high school days where i used to watch the roof of the class for 6 hours daily :P .
Now that i'm really listening and i'm into studying, i'm really good at my class, and i feel so motivated that i don't care that i'm a sort of a late bloomer and that i missed scholarships opportunities, because i'll try to keep this pace as much as i can, and maybe get some real nice scholarships in the future, that way i can get some weight off my parents ( which is what im trying to do with getting a job), and at the same time make myself competitive not just locally, but worldwide.
Rix87a at 2007-7-12 20:17:58 >
