The IDE question...
...is occupying me for a long time now.
With the risk of getting flamed - I want to drop the IDE question once again.
Preamble: Yes, I searched google.
Unfortunately a lot of discussions about IDE I find on the net are quite old and when people ask they get often told "Just search in Google - this issue has been discussed a lot of times".
I am new to Java but not new to programming in general. The last years my focus was on VB under Windows and now I want to move to platform independent development. The reason why I mention that I used VB in the past is that I am regaled and used to have an IDE with comfortable visual editing of GUI forms.
I have tested Eclipse 3.2 and NetBeans 5.5 with the following result: For me it seems that Eclipse has more features and offers a lot more plugins - and also is faster in startup and during debugging. The GUI design with Visual Editor in contrast to the NetBeans Matisse seems to be poor regarding stability and user friendlyness. Or is it only me having difficulties getting familiar with it? Somebody commented that he is designing GUI with NetBeans and developing with Eclipse.
I just played around a little in that direction designing GUI with NetBeans copying the code to Eclipse for further coding but I got difficulties. One of the difficulties was that Eclipse suddenly destroyed my test form which happened several times.
In NetBeans I found it a lot easier getting the first program to work including a package for deployment where everything is on place what I need to run the program on another machine.
So from what I have seen I rather would go with NetBeans. However, it seems that most people use Eclipse. So I have difficulties to decide. Using both together does not seem an efficient way for me so far.
My main field where I guess that I will be active will be thick client application and JSP web applications as far as I can imagine now staying at the beginning of the java development.
I would really like to get somecurrent impressions from people who have tried current versions of IDEs because it is a really difficult decision for me. It will take a while until I will be familiar with the IDE so I do not really want to use one and half a year later finding out that I have chosen the wrong IDE as I also think that the code may not so easy be portable. And of course the project files will not be.
Best regards, Martin.
[2476 byte] By [
mwildama] at [2007-11-27 6:13:21]
I personally prefer Eclipse over Netbeans. There have been a few recent discussions on this, I'll see if I can find one. And to be honest, I hate those GUI editor things. I would rather make it myself. The code they generate looks like barf.
> And to be honest, I hate those GUI editor things. I would rather make
> it myself. The code they generate looks like barf.
I second that and remember: anything that can be used bymonkeys will
only be used by monkeys. Designing GUIs yourself results in my better,
much more flexible code.
And besides that: Eclipse is much better especially when you do the
editing with VI; so there :-P
kind regards.
Jos
JosAHa at 2007-7-12 17:21:41 >
I found that thread I was looking for, but it seems that the majority of the discussion got deleted after Ronda stepped in...
I totally dissagree with the above.. I have used the Visual Studio (C#) stuff for years and it works well - it's very productive in creating GUI apps. The widget stuff gets added to a seperate file you can jump into if you want to mess with it! Since starting to work cross-platform I have been looking at some of the stuff you guy's have been using !! Pheww you really like it to be hard don't you !! Why mess around with widget containers that go pear shaped when you need to re-gig a form ?
I think the great effort that is being done with the NetBeans project is going in the right direction - from listening to them talk I think they realise to get universal adoption they need to produce something as productive as Visual Studio - there are a lot of guy's like me are looking at cross platform and we're fussy about what we'd use - IMHO NetBeans is the one thats' getting it right (Try Version 6 to see the future!)
> So from what I have seen I rather would go with
> NetBeans. However, it seems that most people use
> Eclipse. So I have difficulties to decide. Using both
> together does not seem an efficient way for me so
> far.
What do you mean by "most people"? How many people are you referring too? How many people do you actually know, and how many of the people you know are software developers, and how many of them use Eclipse?
This is giving you difficulties in making a decision?
I use NetBeans simply because it's free, comes ready to use out of the box, uses Swing instead of whatever Eclipse uses for GUI and it's not IBM. But that's just me.
Well the best IDE i have ever used is
JBUILDER 2007 Enterprise Edition
Why? Because You get all jbuilder functions and eclipse funtion in Jbuilder2007. Two in one. Man Its nice.. Specially the J2EE Web Dynamic Project. comes with tomcat5.5, Derby, and the thing which is really kool is, if you get an error just click on the red x and JBuilder2007 will tell you exactly how to get rid of those errors. amazing.
I hate GUI design i love to make it myself rather than depending on these IDE. So many features that a person like me will get lost.
Message was edited by:
fastmike
JBuilder = $1,499.00 ouch, my pocket hurts. GUI visual design can save you loads of time! Not good while learning Java though. To learn, build GUIs manually.
My friend cracked it and gave me a copy. Wow its amazing. Just download the trial version and play with it. I bet you like it. Borlan + Eclipse means BAD AZZ
> I totally dissagree with the above.. I have used the
> Visual Studio (C#) stuff for years and it works well
> - it's very productive in creating GUI apps. The
> widget stuff gets added to a seperate file you can
> jump into if you want to mess with it! Since starting
> to work cross-platform I have been looking at some of
> the stuff you guy's have been using !! Pheww you
> really like it to be hard don't you !! Why mess
> around with widget containers that go pear shaped
> when you need to re-gig a form ?
>
That's a quirk of AWT/Swing, not any particular IDE
> I think the great effort that is being done with the
> NetBeans project is going in the right direction -
> from listening to them talk I think they realise to
> get universal adoption they need to produce something
> as productive as Visual Studio - there are a lot of
> guy's like me are looking at cross platform and we're
> fussy about what we'd use - IMHO NetBeans is the one
> thats' getting it right (Try Version 6 to see the
> future!)
Of course, a lot of Java development has absolutely nothing to do with designing rich client applications, so visual editors are a bit of a red herring in Java IDE circles. Nobody gives 2 hoots how great a forms designer is when they're churning out server-side code, or a web application
Eclipse gets my vote, any day
Netbeans has everything you need to development enterprise applications. I have never used Eclipse. Anything special that is in Eclipse that is not implemented in Netbeans?Thanks
> Anything special that is in Eclipse that is not> implemented in Netbeans?Eclipse has pluggins, many created by a large vibrant community of users and coders. You can code anything from java to python to ruby to even C# in it. It's very flexible, very powerful.
I use netbeans daily coz I find it less buggy and "cleaner" than eclipse. I like the forms designer, but I detest the code it generates.
I use Eclipse for the fancy stuff. The refactoring is top notch, and the debugger is substantially better than netbeans... and all those oh so sexy plugins.
I use jbuilder at work coz I haven't got a choice. It's a shocker. $1,500 is a car, not an IDE.
... and still I use a text editor for one off programs, like forums stuff coz it's quicker & easier to compile at the command line that it is to much around with setting up projects all the time.
I increasingly use the text editor ("edit plus" by name) at work.
There really aren't any "bad" options... it's mostly just personal preference.
Keith.
> Netbeans has everything you need to development
> enterprise applications. I have never used Eclipse.
> Anything special that is in Eclipse that is not
> implemented in Netbeans?
>
> Thanks
An incremental compiler?
I've never really used NetBeans. I had a job writing Eclipse plugins for a while, and developed a soft spot for it there. Everywhere I've worked since has been an Eclipse house apart from one which allowed it's developers to choose their own IDE. That didn't really work. The team was split between Eclipse and Netbeans, both of which organize projects slightly differently, so when one side would commit changes to SCM, the other side would then have to re-jig the project upon checkout before they could proceed with their work. A Bad Idea ? particularly in a continuous integration environment. With that in mind, I think it best to be familiar with all the popular IDEs, although I don't exactly practice what I preach there yet, to be honest
Eclipse is also a lot more than just an IDE. By the time you're using the IDE, you've already seen 2 other platforms which Eclipse provides - a rich client platform and an IDE building framework. NetBeans has an RCP, too, but it is not as flexible as Eclipses. This is obviously only of interest if you're using Eclipse for something other than an IDE, of course. Eclipse's RCP is very flexible and powerful
> > Anything special that is in Eclipse that is not
> > implemented in Netbeans?
>
> Eclipse has pluggins, many created by a large vibrant
> community of users and coders. You can code anything
> from java to python to ruby to even C# in it. It's
> very flexible, very powerful.
NetBeans has plugins, too, called modules. They aren't as well-supported as Eclipse, as you've pointed out. Also, it is a proprietary plugin mechanism, whereas Eclipse uses an implementation of OSGi, which again is something you can reuse standalone if you wish (no need to write your own plugin framework, just use Eclipse - bingo, hot swappable plugins, auto updates for your application, native launchers for popular platforms etc)
I think the community around Eclipse, and the wealth of add-on products gives it a definate advantage over NetBeans. Certainly, it should be taken into account in any decision-making. There are plugins for just about anything you might need for Eclipse. SCM, your bug-tracking system, your build system, database exploring, IM clients, whatever
> What do you mean by "most people"? How many people
> are you referring too? How many people do you
> actually know, and how many of the people you know
> are software developers, and how many of them use
> Eclipse?
All people developing Java do use Eclipse (actually there are not so many but it is 100%). Searching the internet I found a statistic (didn't save the link unfortunately) that showed up as far as I remember that 70 % using Eclipse.
> This is giving you difficulties in making a decision?
I agree with you if you think that one should not automatically rely on what the others do. But there are a lot of people programming long time in java and I am new. Therefore there might be heavy reasons why a lot of people prefer Eclipse. I want to avoid making a lot of bad experience with a lot of IDEs until after years I found the best one.
However from my current impressions looking at both Eclipse and NetBeans I tend to prefer NetBeans because I was able to produce a deployable project with GUI and using additional libraries faster than using Eclipse - knowing that Eclipse would be a little faster in startup (of IDE and when starting the debugger) and has more features regarding refactoring (but I didn't miss such features so far). It could be that NetBeans has just the better learning curve and I don't want to choose it only because of that.
> I personally prefer Eclipse over Netbeans. There
> have been a few recent discussions on this, I'll see
> if I can find one. And to be honest, I hate those
> GUI editor things. I would rather make it myself.
> The code they generate looks like barf.
Mmhh, I started programming when I was about 8 years old and I in those years one had to use still line numbers and there were no loops - only GOTO, GOSUB and RETURN. - So what would I get told if I would still work this way? - And in the meantime I was now about 10 years and more used to have a GUI designer that helps me developing faster. Sure, I could do it by hand and maybe to learn how it works I might take a look on it. But in reality, I have customers who don't want to spend so much money. So I need to produce solutions efficiently. So working about 10 years with a GUI designer it sounds a little hard that I would have to do without. And what Eclipse offers there is quite a pain from my point of view or I have to change completely my way of thinking regarding GUI design - which I do not want to exclude totally. Is there anybody who really uses the Visual Editor in Eclipse?
As far as I see the lack of GUI design is for me the biggest lack in Eclipse. A second annoying thing is that it cannot not create a complete deployment package or directory with all libraries so that I get a folder where everything is there that has to be copied to a destination machine for deployment (maybe I only didn't find the relevant options - the simple JAR export however does not copy everything to the out folder). Things I assumed to be there and easy after years of evolution in Java (IDEs)... - But maybe I assume too much and maybe I am too optimistic regarding my learning curve. ;-)
The reason that it is difficult to find a very good GUI editor in a Java IDE is because the majority of Java development revolves around the future of most software development in general: the web. Proprietary, desktop applications that ship in a box are quickly dying off ... which makes me wonder why Sun is putting so much time and effort into building their desktop api...
That being said, the Java Desktop API is amazing and has seen some awesome improvements over the years. A good 75% of my Desktop development is in Java now (being as I develop in Solaris and deploy to Linux/Windows and Solaris). The other 25% is with vi, cc and a good reference for the Motif X Win APIs ;-) (Talk about screwy, Motif gives me more fits than anything else I've ever done)...
Anyway, I think you get my point. Java has never really been a heavy desktop development tool - hence the lack of support for GUI editors in their [java's] IDEs.
> > What do you mean by "most people"? How many people
> > are you referring too? How many people do you
> > actually know, and how many of the people you know
> > are software developers, and how many of them use
> > Eclipse?
>
> All people developing Java do use Eclipse (actually
> there are not so many but it is 100%). Searching the
> internet I found a statistic (didn't save the link
> unfortunately) that showed up as far as I remember
> that 70 % using Eclipse.
>
Hardly. Out of about 10 Java developers here half never or rarely use Eclipse and the rest use it only because they can't get the finance department to authorise more copies of IntelliJ...
As it is I use Eclipse only for a very few things still, and none of them have to do with Java (maintaining build files for example).
>
> > This is giving you difficulties in making a
> decision?
>
> I agree with you if you think that one should not
> automatically rely on what the others do. But there
> are a lot of people programming long time in java and
> I am new. Therefore there might be heavy reasons why
> a lot of people prefer Eclipse. I want to avoid
> making a lot of bad experience with a lot of IDEs
> until after years I found the best one.
>
Pretty much the only reason is that it's the best overall of the free offerings and most people can't get funding for decent tools if there's a free tool, any free tool.
> However from my current impressions looking at both
> Eclipse and NetBeans I tend to prefer NetBeans
> because I was able to produce a deployable project
> with GUI and using additional libraries faster than
Not my experience. Netbeans is clunky. Eclipse is clunky too, but not AS clunky as Netbeans.
> Mmhh, I started programming when I was about 8 years
> old and I in those years one had to use still line
> numbers and there were no loops - only GOTO, GOSUB
> and RETURN. - So what would I get told if I would
> still work this way? - And in the meantime I was now
Visual Basic anyone? :)
> about 10 years and more used to have a GUI designer
> that helps me developing faster. Sure, I could do it
> by hand and maybe to learn how it works I might take
> a look on it. But in reality, I have customers who
> don't want to spend so much money. So I need to
But they'll also be the first to complain when that userinterface you slapped together in NB doesn't work well under all conditions...
> I personally prefer Eclipse over Netbeans. There
> have been a few recent discussions on this, I'll see
> if I can find one. And to be honest, I hate those
> GUI editor things. I would rather make it myself.
> The code they generate looks like barf.
NetBeans has the advantage that you may choose between using the GUI editor or making the gui purely from your own code :-)
Jamwaa at 2007-7-21 21:46:11 >
> (Try Version 6 to see the> future!)In Version 6, after a 'clean', try just running a single class. The whole sodding world gets compiled.
> > (Try Version 6 to see the
> > future!)
>
> In Version 6, after a 'clean', try just running a
> single class. The whole sodding world gets compiled.
ah, just like 5 then which parses and catalogs each jar on your machine and any machine it can reach when doing just about anything?
I mainly use JCreator.However on Linux I use Netbeans.
> > (Try Version 6 to see the
> > future!)
>
> In Version 6, after a 'clean', try just running a
> single class. The whole sodding world gets compiled.
"If that's the future of Rock 'n' Roll, you can keep it!" - 'Whispering' Bob Harris commenting on Roxy Music
> With the risk of getting flamed - I want to drop the
> IDE question once again.
> I would really like to get some current impressions
Required answer:
http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=788898&start=10
Really, little has changed in the Java IDE world for while.
> that I used VB in the past is that I am regaled and
> used to have an IDE with comfortable visual editing
> of GUI forms.
Learn GUI dev without an IDE before moving on to an IDE with a visual editing tool. I like Matisse (Netbeans & I believe a plugin for Eclipse). But you have to force yourself to be good when using it. Give GUI components proper names, don't use the "double-click-auto-adds-action' ****.
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:11 >
>
> Really, little has changed in the Java IDE world for
> while.
>
Well, Eclipse and Netbeans have gotten marginally more useable.
JCreator and BlueJ have slid even more into the abyss of being used only by failed teachers.
And Borland has had another one of its periodic bouts of "enterprise" and split of its only profitable division (the IDE business) under a new name.
Apart from that indeed only some version numbers have increased another notch or two.
> > that I used VB in the past is that I am regaled
> and
> used to have an IDE with comfortable visual editing
> of GUI forms.
>
> Learn GUI dev without an IDE before moving on to an
> IDE with a visual editing tool. I like Matisse
> (Netbeans & I believe a plugin for Eclipse). But you
> have to force yourself to be good when using it. Give
> GUI components proper names, don't use the
> "double-click-auto-adds-action' ****.
And always remember that no GUI designer will ever produce highly optimised code, nor code that's likely to survive situations beyond the basics of operations.
> And Borland has had another one of its periodic bouts
> of "enterprise" and split of its only profitable
> division (the IDE business) under a new name.
I've missed that altogether. Shows how often I look at Borland products.
> And always remember that no GUI designer will ever
> produce highly optimised code, nor code that's likely
Is optimised GUI code all that important? The code behind the Actions, sure but you don't use a GUI tool for that (well I don't). All the GUI tool does (for me) is lay component out is nice way, and makes hooking Actions & <List/Table/etc>Models up to GUI components that little bit more complicated.
> to survive situations beyond the basics of operations.
I guess I'm lucky (or just a simpleton) as they do my needs.
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:11 >
> The reason that it is difficult to find a very good
> GUI editor in a Java IDE is because the majority of
> Java development revolves around the future of most
> software development in general: the web.
> Proprietary, desktop applications that ship in a box
> are quickly dying off
There is a hype of the WEB 2.0 with a lot of advantages. Compared to older web applications newer ones behave a lot more like thick clients regarding the UI features and feeling.
However, with the growing use of web applications I can see also a move towards thick clients again. One reason is that especially for smaller companies webservers are outsourced and companies do not want to put their (maybe confidential) data to foreign servers. Another reason is that there are still a lot of occasions where one is not online and wants to have the data local. And actually I cannot see any sense in using an office application through browser when I can have it faster locally.
> ... which makes me wonder why
> Sun is putting so much time and effort into building
> their desktop api...
The above is maybe a reason why Sun continues to work at that area and I hope they will continue otherwise Java would not be the right for me.
> Anyway, I think you get my point. Java has never
> really been a heavy desktop development tool - hence
> the lack of support for GUI editors in their [java's]
> IDEs.
I think I missed that so far. I did not know that Java was meant for server apps only.
> Hardly. Out of about 10 Java developers here half
> never or rarely use Eclipse and the rest use it only
> because they can't get the finance department to
> authorise more copies of IntelliJ...
Aha - probably what is the most used IDE depends on who created the appropriate statistic one is looking at.
> > Eclipse and NetBeans I tend to prefer NetBeans
> > because I was able to produce a deployable project
> > with GUI and using additional libraries faster
> Not my experience. Netbeans is clunky. Eclipse is
> clunky too, but not AS clunky as Netbeans.
Probably it depends on the version that is used. I began playing around with Eclipse about 2 years ago the first time. In the meantime I used about 3 different versions and the stability was different from version to version. Especially the Visual Editor in the version from about a year ago (don't remember which version exactly it was) was extremely unstable. But it was always just playing around a little.
> Visual Basic anyone? :)
People grin - but as far as I see it came with a great IDE and this although about 10 years old...
> > a look on it. But in reality, I have customers who
> > don't want to spend so much money.
> But they'll also be the first to complain when that
> userinterface you slapped together in NB doesn't work
> well under all conditions...
Hhmm, with VB there were no major complains which could not have been fixed quite easily. So I do not understand why an IDE a lot newer should have big problems regarding this. Or am I expecting too much? then probably Java is not the right programming language... :-(
> > With the risk of getting flamed - I want to drop the
> > IDE question once again.
> > I would really like to get some current impressions
> Required answer:
> http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=788898&start=10
> Really, little has changed in the Java IDE world for while.
That would be poor - but unfortunately the information content of the posts in that thread decreased very fast after a few posts.
> Learn GUI dev without an IDE before moving on to an
> IDE with a visual editing tool. I like Matisse
> (Netbeans & I believe a plugin for Eclipse). But you
> have to force yourself to be good when using it.
Poohhh, annoying if I have to do it by hand. Only thinking about it I feel like in the stone age.
> Give GUI components proper names, don't use the
> "double-click-auto-adds-action' ****.
That is naturally - wasn't different in the VB GUI designer. This is no problem for me.
> And always remember that no GUI designer will ever
> produce highly optimised code, nor code that's likely
> to survive situations beyond the basics of operations.
As the most users are not highly optimized in using mouse and keyboard I do not need highly optimized code behind my command buttons. ;-)
Processor intensive work is usually not directly behind a GUI button. However I assume that threading is easier to implement as in VB (that's one reason why I sticked to VB5 instead of VB6 because together with the threading API VB6 was very unstable.
> Is optimised GUI code all that important? The code
> behind the Actions, sure but you don't use a GUI tool
> for that (well I don't).
Neither do I.
> > to survive situations beyond the basics of operations.
> I guess I'm lucky (or just a simpleton) as they do my needs.
That let me hope.
BTW: Can somebody give me a short abstract of what is the difference between NetBeans and Java Studio Enterprise?
> > The reason that it is difficult to find a very
> good
> > GUI editor in a Java IDE is because the majority
> of
> > Java development revolves around the future of
> most
> > software development in general: the web.
> > Proprietary, desktop applications that ship in a
> box
> > are quickly dying off
>
> There is a hype of the WEB 2.0 with a lot of
> advantages. Compared to older web applications newer
> ones behave a lot more like thick clients regarding
> the UI features and feeling.
>
> However, with the growing use of web applications I
> can see also a move towards thick clients again. One
> reason is that especially for smaller companies
> webservers are outsourced and companies do not want
> to put their (maybe confidential) data to foreign
> servers. Another reason is that there are still a lot
> of occasions where one is not online and wants to
> have the data local. And actually I cannot see any
> sense in using an office application through browser
> when I can have it faster locally.
>
You might change your mind when you have 1000 clients to install it on, and the licensing fees that go with it, though. That's what's driven the move toward web apps, cost. Nothing more
> > ... which makes me wonder why
> > Sun is putting so much time and effort into
> building
> > their desktop api..
> The above is maybe a reason why Sun continues to work
> at that area and I hope they will continue otherwise
> Java would not be the right for me.
>
>
> > Anyway, I think you get my point. Java has never
> > really been a heavy desktop development tool -
> hence
> > the lack of support for GUI editors in their
> [java's]
> > IDEs.
>
> I think I missed that so far. I did not know that
> Java was meant for server apps only.
>
It's not. Things just worked out that way. Sun is in the business of selling servers. Everything they do, in some way, influences that. All this lovely free software they give away, it's all just a loss-leader to sell more servers. JDBC, EJB, JSP, JBI, the lot, all exist to make Java a more attractive platform for enterprise computing, with the ultimate aim of course to be "sell more servers!". But Java is a pretty general-purpose language, on the whole
>
> > Hardly. Out of about 10 Java developers here half
> > never or rarely use Eclipse and the rest use it
> only
> > because they can't get the finance department to
> > authorise more copies of IntelliJ...
>
> Aha - probably what is the most used IDE depends on
> who created the appropriate statistic one is looking
> at.
>
>
> > > Eclipse and NetBeans I tend to prefer NetBeans
> > > because I was able to produce a deployable
> project
> > > with GUI and using additional libraries faster
> > Not my experience. Netbeans is clunky. Eclipse is
> > clunky too, but not AS clunky as Netbeans.
>
> Probably it depends on the version that is used. I
> began playing around with Eclipse about 2 years ago
> the first time. In the meantime I used about 3
> different versions and the stability was different
> from version to version. Especially the Visual Editor
> in the version from about a year ago (don't remember
> which version exactly it was) was extremely unstable.
> But it was always just playing around a little.
>
> > Visual Basic anyone? :)
>
> People grin - but as far as I see it came with a
> great IDE and this although about 10 years old...
>
A hideous IDE! A horrifically unintuitive code editor, a poster child for vendor lock-in (what else can compile VB6?) and definately very much aimed at getting a GUI in place, with underlying code an afterthought.
> > > a look on it. But in reality, I have customers
> who
> > > don't want to spend so much money.
> > But they'll also be the first to complain when
> that
> > userinterface you slapped together in NB doesn't
> work
> > well under all conditions...
>
> Hhmm, with VB there were no major complains which
> could not have been fixed quite easily. So I do not
> understand why an IDE a lot newer should have big
> problems regarding this. Or am I expecting too much?
> then probably Java is not the right programming
> language... :-(
>
>
> > > With the risk of getting flamed - I want to drop
> the
> > > IDE question once again.
> > > I would really like to get some current
> impressions
> > Required answer:
> >
> http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=788898&
> start=10
> > Really, little has changed in the Java IDE world
> for while.
>
> That would be poor - but unfortunately the
> information content of the posts in that thread
> decreased very fast after a few posts.
>
>
> > Learn GUI dev without an IDE before moving on to
> an
> > IDE with a visual editing tool. I like Matisse
> > (Netbeans & I believe a plugin for Eclipse). But
> you
> > have to force yourself to be good when using it.
>
> Poohhh, annoying if I have to do it by hand. Only
> thinking about it I feel like in the stone age.
>
>
> > Give GUI components proper names, don't use the
> > "double-click-auto-adds-action' ****.
>
> That is naturally - wasn't different in the VB GUI
> designer. This is no problem for me.
>
>
> > And always remember that no GUI designer will ever
> > produce highly optimised code, nor code that's
> likely
> > to survive situations beyond the basics of
> operations.
>
> As the most users are not highly optimized in using
> mouse and keyboard I do not need highly optimized
> code behind my command buttons. ;-)
>
> Processor intensive work is usually not directly
> behind a GUI button. However I assume that threading
> is easier to implement as in VB (that's one reason
> why I sticked to VB5 instead of VB6 because together
> with the threading API VB6 was very unstable.
>
It often is, though, when people don't understand how important that kind of separation is. And coding from a visual perspective doesn't help them understand this
> information content of the posts in that thread
> decreased very fast after a few posts.
Because reply 10 had all the information all IDE threads contain. And the One True Answer. Try them all, find out which work for you.
> Poohhh, annoying if I have to do it by hand. Only
> thinking about it I feel like in the stone age.
Yes for the first few times. Unlike VB which has its GUI in different resource files, Java has all the UI in code. So when it goes wrong you need to be able to work out why.
You only need to understand the basics then move on to use an editor, so how long that takes you is dependent on you.
> That is naturally - wasn't different in the VB GUI
> designer. This is no problem for me.
My XP with GUI built applications (in VB or Java) is that they are almost always build completely with default names and double-click generated actions.
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:16 >
> You might change your mind when you have 1000 clients
> to install it on, and the licensing fees that go with
> it, though. That's what's driven the move toward web
> apps, cost. Nothing more
Deploying should not be a lot of work - just to put some packages to repository and choose a group of users where to deploy. Don't see that much more difficult then creating a user acount somewhere.
> It's not. Things just worked out that way. Sun is in
> the business of selling servers. Everything they do,
> in some way, influences that.
I understand - but thick clients may also have server interaction and communicate a lot with servers when the client has a connection to the server.
> All this lovely free software they give away,
I agree - we must be very happy about that!
> > People grin - but as far as I see it came with a
> > great IDE and this although about 10 years old...
> A hideous IDE! A horrifically unintuitive code editor,
I cannot share your opinion regarding this. And it is a lot more stable than Eclipse or Visual Studio .NET.
> a poster child for vendor lock-in (what else
> can compile VB6?)
Totally agree with that - why do you think that I ended up to this community?
> and definately very much aimed at
> getting a GUI in place, with underlying code an
> afterthought.
This is just an issue of coding style and discipline of the developer.
> > Processor intensive work is usually not directly
> > behind a GUI button.
> It often is, though, when people don't understand how
> important that kind of separation is. And coding from
> a visual perspective doesn't help them understand this
I think we are not talking about those people. And regarding me personally - I am new to Java but not new to software development in general.
> > information content of the posts in that thread
> > decreased very fast after a few posts.
> Because reply 10 had all the information all IDE
> threads contain. And the One True Answer. Try them
> all, find out which work for you.
I am trying them. That does not make my decision a lot easier. I do see advantages here and there - if everything would be clear for me after trying them I would not ask for your opinion - or better - consultation.
> I am trying them. That does not make my decision a
> lot easier. I do see advantages here and there - if
> everything would be clear for me after trying them I
> would not ask for your opinion - or better -
> consultation.
And have we made it any clearer? I would not have thought so, given it is purely personal taste. Does it matter that I think Eclipse is the better text editor as it just feels better to use, and lets me use custom ant tasks with no messing about, but I use Netbeans for GUI work? Not really, as my needs are not your needs.
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:16 >
> > You might change your mind when you have 1000
> clients
> > to install it on, and the licensing fees that go
> with
> > it, though. That's what's driven the move toward
> web
> > apps, cost. Nothing more
>
> Deploying should not be a lot of work - just to put
> some packages to repository and choose a group of
> users where to deploy. Don't see that much more
> difficult then creating a user acount somewhere.
>
All of which takes time, and effort, and in a lot of cases, effort on the part of trained staff that are thin on the ground. It might be not much effort to deploy, but that's still more than "no effort at all"!
> > It's not. Things just worked out that way. Sun is
> in
> > the business of selling servers. Everything they
> do,
> > in some way, influences that.
>
> I understand - but thick clients may also have server
> interaction and communicate a lot with servers when
> the client has a connection to the server.
>
Indeed they may. But it's hard to argue with a deployment step that consists solely of giving someone a hyperlink!
> > All this lovely free software they give away,
>
> I agree - we must be very happy about that!
>
>
> > > People grin - but as far as I see it came with a
> > > great IDE and this although about 10 years
> old...
> > A hideous IDE! A horrifically unintuitive code
> editor,
>
> I cannot share your opinion regarding this. And it is
> a lot more stable than Eclipse or Visual Studio
> .NET.
>
Nor need you agree! IDEs are very personal things, which is really what this thread is all about. But I'm hoping nobody decides to use VB6 just because they like the IDE!
> > I am trying them. That does not make my decision a
> > lot easier. I do see advantages here and there -
> > if everything would be clear for me after trying them
> > I would not ask for your opinion - or better -
> > consultation.
> And have we made it any clearer? I would not have
> thought so, given it is purely personal taste.
I think you all helped me a lot getting a better view onto the Java development (community) their main realm of activity in general. And I am now feeling better if I do make the decision upon my feeling in the belly. As the most say still and again that it is personal feeling than it might be really the right choice to just go with the personal feeling.
> Does it matter that I think Eclipse is the better text
> editor as it just feels better to use, and lets me
> use custom ant tasks with no messing about, but I use
> Netbeans for GUI work? Not really, as my needs are
> not your needs.
Actually I do think that some needs are very common for all developers other not so common. I would say that my requirements are "allround" - I do need web development as well as thick client programming so what I need is an IDE that does an overall good job - so I prefer an IDE that does a quite good job for thick client and web development rather than an IDE that does an excellent job in web development but a poor job in thick client development - basically spoken. And I think I cannot be sooo alone with these requirements.
> Nor need you agree! IDEs are very personal things,
> which is really what this thread is all about. But
> I'm hoping nobody decides to use VB6 just because
> they like the IDE!
:-))) - Agree with you that the IDE is only a part. - But an important - I see it all day a lot longer than I see my wife - so I would get a lot faster annoyed! ;-)
> spoken. And I think I cannot be sooo alone with these> requirements.Not at all, luckily Netbeans and Eclipse both do a very good job (correct plugins installed o/c).I would guess Intelli J does too (never used it).
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:16 >
> > And always remember that no GUI designer will ever
> > produce highly optimised code, nor code that's
> likely
>
> Is optimised GUI code all that important? The code
> behind the Actions, sure but you don't use a GUI tool
> for that (well I don't). All the GUI tool does (for
> me) is lay component out is nice way, and makes
> hooking Actions & <List/Table/etc>Models up to GUI
> components that little bit more complicated.
>
That too is optimisation.
Maintenance optimisation by not creating God classes with ten thousand lines of code in anonymous inner classes that get deleted the moment you click on a button in the designer (as some "GUI builders" have a nagging tendency to do).
> That too is optimisation.
I'd call it good design.
> Maintenance optimisation by not creating God classes
> with ten thousand lines of code in anonymous inner
> classes that
And that I would call bad design.
> get deleted the moment you click on a
> button in the designer (as some "GUI builders" have a
> nagging tendency to do).
Not come across that before, sounds rather evil. Which does that? (Deleting stuff, not the anonumous inner cases of doom, that I've seen)
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:16 >
> > for that (well I don't). All the GUI tool does (for
> > me) is lay component out is nice way, and makes
> > hooking Actions & <List/Table/etc>Models up to GUI
> > components that little bit more complicated.
> That too is optimisation.
> Maintenance optimisation by not creating God classes
> with ten thousand lines of code in anonymous inner
> classes that get deleted the moment you click on a
> button in the designer (as some "GUI builders" have a
> nagging tendency to do).
I looks like as you would talk about Eclipse Visual Editor - I found the generated code very strange.
Guys, I really want to thank you. This thread for me seems to be the constructivest from the one I read - maybe also because I already seen clearer now - nevertheless I am at the crotch. But it is not a definitely one if the future turns out different I would be able to change if I would gain efficiency then.
Although a lot of people told that it is a really personal decision I didn't believe it. Now I am feeling better deciding from my personal feeling. Being so new to Java caused me to not rely on my personal feeling after looking so shortly at the IDEs. Now I am convinced that with both IDEs (Eclipse and NetBeans) it should be no big problem developing with either that one or that one.
I decided now to go with NetBeans (currently 5.5.1) for further tests. The reasons (in the order of relevance):
1. Matisse is definitely the better GUI designer in relation to Visual Editor on Eclipse - definitely! Also creates a lot better code.
2. Dynamic help (tooltip-popups of member lists and parameter information) is also better in NetBeans - I upgraded today from 5.5 to 5.5.1 and there is signifficant improvement regarding that in NetBeans (parameter tip is a separate tooltip and shows multiple definitions one below the other - didn't see that in 5.5 as far as I can remember now). While hitting the same key sequence Eclipse further behaves differently in what it shows in tips and sometimes it autocompletes the parameters and sometimes not where for me is not clear when it completes and when not. As these are things affecting me on each line of code the efficiency and correctness and comprehensiveness of the tips and completion is a key issue for me.
3. On a complete build NetBeans creates the correct manifest file in the jar and prepares the output folder in the way that I can pick a folder, copy it to a destination machine and it works there - no need to create ant files or other stuff I do not know so far being new to java.
That were the main reasons. Eclipse is faster, seems to have the larger community and from the philosophy the project is designed (being one IDE for any language and so on) I would have prefered the Eclipse but as I cannot have everything I must renounce some nice-to-haves.
Many thanks again for your time and contributions!
Message was edited by:
mwildam
> 1. Matisse is definitely the better GUI designer in> relation to Visual Editor on Eclipse - definitely!> Also creates a lot better code.It is, but you can get Matisse for Eclipse as well. :)
mlka at 2007-7-21 21:46:16 >
> 2. Dynamic help (tooltip-popups of member lists and
> parameter information) is also better in NetBeans - I
> upgraded today from 5.5 to 5.5.1 and there is
> signifficant improvement regarding that in NetBeans
> (parameter tip is a separate tooltip and shows
> multiple definitions one below the other - didn't see
> that in 5.5 as far as I can remember now). While
> hitting the same key sequence Eclipse further behaves
> differently in what it shows in tips and sometimes it
> autocompletes the parameters and sometimes not where
> for me is not clear when it completes and when not.
> As these are things affecting me on each line of code
> the efficiency and correctness and comprehensiveness
> of the tips and completion is a key issue for me.
That's configurable in Eclipse
> 3. On a complete build NetBeans creates the correct
> manifest file in the jar and prepares the output
> folder in the way that I can pick a folder, copy it
> to a destination machine and it works there - no need
> to create ant files or other stuff I do not know so
> far being new to java.
But bear in mind that ultimately you won't be using your IDE to do that in a production environment anyway (I hope!)
> > And to be honest, I hate those GUI editor things. I would rather
> > make it myself. The code they generate looks like barf.
> Mmhh, I started programming when I was about 8 years old and I in
> those years one had to use still line numbers and there were no
> loops - only GOTO, GOSUB and RETURN. - So what would I get told if
> I would still work this way? - And in the meantime I was now about 10
> years and more used to have a GUI designer that helps me
> developing faster.
My 2c for what it's worth...
I've tried the GUI designer thingies, and my experience with them is that they suck. Not so much because of the ease-of-use, or because of the resultant display of the GUI, but because the code they generate is awful. This code has to be maintained - and not only by me, but by others who may come to the project later with who knows what kind of GUI (or IDE) experience.
> Sure, I could do it by hand and maybe to learn how it works I might
> take a look on it. But in reality, I have customers who don't want to
> spend so much money. So I need to produce solutions efficiently.
Learning to ride a bike is so much easier with training wheels. However, you'll never know true speed until you take them off.
When I first started to learn Swing, building a somewhat complex form in the GUI designer was probably at least 5 or 6 times faster than doing it by hand. Now that I know how to do it by hand, I can now do it at least 2 or 3 times faster than I could through the GUI designer.
> So working about 10 years with a GUI designer it sounds a little hard
> that I would have to do without.
The only GUI stuff that I ever did in the past was with VB, so yeah, it was a tough adjustment for me too. However, in the long run, I'm *so* glad I did.
i dont understand why people are against of using an IDE like eclipse or neatbeans or Jbuilder? I started with notepad, it sucks big time i hate it because of the code indenting. did'nt knew about JEdit which is OK. I Download JCreator LE and Professional version which was the best for a beginner.
Then i moved to Jbuilder2007 which is so impressive, not just writing programs but specially for J2ee application.
So download JCreator LE or Professional and then once you are comfortable then move on to eclipse.
Message was edited by:
fastmike
> > That too is optimisation.
>
> I'd call it good design.
>
It's both, and most "designers" prevent you from doing it.
> > Maintenance optimisation by not creating God
> classes
> > with ten thousand lines of code in anonymous inner
> > classes that
>
> And that I would call bad design.
>
yet it is produced by most "designers" :(
> > get deleted the moment you click on a
> > button in the designer (as some "GUI builders" have
> a
> > nagging tendency to do).
>
> Not come across that before, sounds rather evil.
> Which does that? (Deleting stuff, not the anonumous
> inner cases of doom, that I've seen)
I've seen it. Netbeans used to do that, so did Visual AIDS. Not sure if Netbeans still does it, wouldn't be surprised.
> i dont understand why people are against of using an
> IDE like eclipse or neatbeans or Jbuilder? I started
> with notepad, it sucks big time i hate it because of
> the code indenting. did'nt knew about JEdit which is
> OK. I Download JCreator LE and Professional version
> which was the best for a beginner.
>
Especially for people learning the language using an IDE will mask a lot of language details from them.
They click on some buttons in a wizzard and they have a lot of code, think they're programmers and can now write Java.
They click another button and have a compiled class in a jar file complete with correct manifest to make it an executable jar.
Fast forward a bit and they are working somewhere (maybe at home instead of at school) where they don't have that specific IDE set up in that exact way.
They're lost completely, come here crying because "Jav no work".
Or worse they don't find out they know nothing except the IDE until they end up working in a company that uses a different toolset and they can't find the right buttons, saddling others with their work.
IDEs should be used to increase productivity, not to hide inexperience or ineptness.
> Fast forward a bit and they are working somewhere
> (maybe at home instead of at school) where they don't
> have that specific IDE set up in that exact way.
> They're lost completely, come here crying because
> "Jav no work".
>
> Or worse they don't find out they know nothing except
> the IDE until they end up working in a company that
> uses a different toolset and they can't find the
> right buttons, saddling others with their work.
>
> IDEs should be used to increase productivity, not to
> hide inexperience or ineptness.
To be the devil's advocate...
If they're smart enough they will be able to figure out the non-IDE parts when the come to it. A quick google or search of the forum will pull up the most common stumbling blocks and their solutions. If on the other hand, they are not smart enough, then they're probably not meant to be programmers.
>> and definately very much aimed at
>> getting a GUI in place, with underlying code an
>> afterthought.
>This is just an issue of coding style and discipline of the developer.
This has nothing to do with discipline or coding style. It's a different way of thinking. I have been on the .Net side! I've seen a lot of guys work like: no need to create a class for this; if I drag this and that together, everything is done for me... I have trained some really unexperienced programmers that had used Visual studio 2005 for a few weeks before. I had a really hard time defending writing some code by hand.
The typical conversation went like this:
Them: Why do we need to write code if I can 'click-click-click' all this together?
Me: Because you don't have any control, maintainability... Do you understand what it does?
Them: No, but it works...
Me: So what if anything changes?
Them: Then we click together a new version!
> The typical conversation went like this:
> Them: Why do we need to write code if I can
> 'click-click-click' all this together?
> Me: Because you don't have any control,
> maintainability... Do you understand what it does?
> Them: No, but it works...
> Me: So what if anything changes?
> Them: Then we click together a new version!
Hard job. But - although I am interested and want to know the background and all the details - it is also a matter of time. So I can also understand them: The main aim is to get something to work. Clicking things together might be the fastest and easiest way but not always the best in long term view.
The best would be if clicking things together creates the same nice code as you would write. Programmers are lazy, isn't it?
> > 1. Matisse is definitely the better GUI designer in
> > relation to Visual Editor on Eclipse - definitely!
> > Also creates a lot better code.
> It is, but you can get Matisse for Eclipse as well. :)
Yes, I know but that costs money. Probably when I earn money with Java I will have the extra money for it. ;-)
> To be the devil's advocate...
> If they're smart enough they will be able to
> figure out the non-IDE parts when the come to it. A
> quick google or search of the forum will pull up the
> most common stumbling blocks and their solutions. If
> on the other hand, they are not smart enough, then
> they're probably not meant to be programmers.
I'd rather have them weeded out early, during the first few weeks at school, than having them waste our time (and their own) spending months or years at school thinking they can program until reality catches up with them...
Seen enough VB flunkies to last a lifetime.
> Hard job. But - although I am interested and want to
> know the background and all the details - it is also
> a matter of time. So I can also understand them: The
If you know what you're doing you can type as fast as you can click, probably faster.
> main aim is to get something to work. Clicking things
> together might be the fastest and easiest way but not
> always the best in long term view.
>
So you earn a bit of time upfront for a high cost later. Not a good tradeoff except maybe for a quick prototype.
> The best would be if clicking things together creates
> the same nice code as you would write. Programmers
> are lazy, isn't it?
No, they're pragmatic.
If I need to spend an hour now to save me a day next week I do it.
>> main aim is to get something to work. Clicking things
>> together might be the fastest and easiest way but not
>> always the best in long term view.
>>
>So you earn a bit of time upfront for a high cost later. Not a good tradeoff except maybe for a quick prototype.
I agree wholehartedly on this one! Imagine the impression you make on a customer by rapidly clicking something together that afterwards appears to be a maintainance nightmare.
> I'd rather have them weeded out early, during the
> first few weeks at school, than having them waste our
> time (and their own) spending months or years at
> school thinking they can program until reality
> catches up with them...
Mmmhh, I am not sure to what group I should count myself now...
I did not code my forms by hand (although could be done in the VB even manually) for years but to get weeded out I think I have produced too many programs in use at customers. I created benefits for customers without coding manually my forms.
Maybe I am still dreaming - or your words are too drastical - or even it might be that your words apply to Java development only. If last is true then Java is poor. I rather think that your words are too drastical and reality is somewhere in the middle.
> Seen enough VB flunkies to last a lifetime.
In fact there are a lot of people programming who just know how to code something or rather just copying code pieces from the internet together. That a lot of those coders use VB might be because a lot of people start coding or learning to program while they just want to create a macro for repeating work in **** MS Word. Or there might be other directions from where such developers come from. But this is not a matter of VB - it's just how people get programmers. And: Nobody gets a good developer overnight and it may take more than just a few weeks to find out how to work efficiently - and then it is maybe only efficient when working with a particular language and with particular tools in a particular environment at a particular time - because over the years a lot of factors change. Maybe some guys here had experiences with bad GUI design with old versions of NetBeans and therefore still say that it is awful although in the meanwhile got a lot better - who knows.
I do believe all those who say that probably might be more efficient coding the GUI by hand after a learning curve. Maybe I will do so in a year or two - who knows. But in reality in all the years my experience was (even under DOS where I used development environments with GUI designer eg Magic II) that coding the GUI by hand is awful and annoying - that is my long years experience under different environments. So if I have to go back to coding GUI by hand then it is a big step back in my opinion and a reason for not developing in Java - sorry.
Although - I do not really believe that the GUI designer and created code is so bad in NetBeans - for the Eclipse Visual Editor I believe immediately all those who say to code by hand. I will get my experience and keep you informed.
