Has etiquette in these forums worsened? Or is it just me?
Hey,
So it's been about a year since I've been at these forums. I've been working on something non-java related for a while.
But anyway, I was just browsing over the posts and noticed that the level of etiquette is lower than what it was.
I'm seeing a lot more arguments or unrelated discussions going on in someone's question thread.
I just read over a student post who posted a simple legitimate question about operator precedence. And the responses were so over-the-top arrogant. And then two posters started discussing and arguing over something completely unrelated on the OP's thread!
I remember a year ago, that arrogance in these forums was VERY rare, and not tolerated by anyone. Under-researched questions or commonly asked questions were responded to with a link to a relevant page, or a few terms that the OP could look for. Nothing more was needed.
And if the attitude of the OP doesn't appeal to someone, they just ignored it.
Has it always been this bad? or is it just me?
-Cuppo
PS: And what happened to the Watercooler forum?
[1115 byte] By [
CuppoJavaa] at [2007-11-27 5:33:02]
>> PS: And what happened to the Watercooler forum?
Its in the thread with that "student[s] post [with the] simple legitimate question".
We answered his questions and gave him relevant links to find the answers. Aknibbs and Hippolyte asked him on more than one occasion
to specify what he was having problems with.
This forum has never just provided the answers to exam questions.
There should be some work on the part of the OP.
>> And then two posters started discussing and arguing over something completely unrelated on the OP's thread!
Nobody in that thread was arguing, lol. I consider Aknibbs and Hoppolytes forum friends. Sure we were joking around but I
didnt see anything "argumentative" "arrogant" or rude in there.
Unless you take offense to calling "victorias day" "dainty", lol.
> I remember a year ago, that arrogance in these forums
> was VERY rare, and not tolerated by anyone.
> Under-researched questions or commonly asked
> questions were responded to with a link to a relevant
> page, or a few terms that the OP could look for.
> Nothing more was needed.
> And if the attitude of the OP doesn't appeal to
> someone, they just ignored it.
>
I am sorry but you are wrong. This is not the way it was a year ago, or five years ago or eight years ago.
> Has it always been this bad? or is it just me?
In some ways things are better. Less Goldie for one thing.
In other ways things are worse. Look at this thread http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5176699&start=0&tstart=0
I would say it's fairly typical to have several of these a day.
Here's another example from this week http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5176013
I mean. Come on. Vague questions. Lazy, lazy, lazy, lazy people with no clue seeking "teh codes". It's not surprising to me that there's off-topic chatter in some threads when this is the quality of so many of the questions.
But it isn't just getting worse here, it's getting worse everywhere. More and more lazy nitwits think the answers to much of life's problems can be found for free on the internet without their having to work one iota to actually learn or do anything.
>-Cuppo
> PS: And what happened to the Watercooler forum?
You've been gone longer than a year I guess. Sun axed the water cooler (aka the forum that shall not be named although the thought police are less active then they used to be) around 2002.
It's worsened recently because there's been an influx of incredibly rude, ignorant people demanding help and insulting anyone who does anything less than post complete code. That seems to have made a lot of people very sensitive and maybe see that behaviour where it may not actually exist. Then there are the people claiming to have found a [url=http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=5176269&start=0&tstart=0]major bug in java[/url] which turns out to be their lack of understanding, but rather than concede that once proven, continue to argue that everyone else in the world has it wrong.
So really an influx of bad etiquette has infected everyone else a little
PS your game development thread (which I had read before seeing this one) is a great idea.
Sadly the target audience will likely not read it. And people will continue to blow up when told that they should learn Java before trying to make a 3-D FPS in it. It happens again and again. Code is posted that is hopeless one-class mish-mash of snippets found on the internet that doesn't work and has no hope of ever working and it us being rude to suggest that learning Java is an important first step before trying to write programs in Java.
I mean sometimes when you are bailing out the ocean with a thimble you say to yourself, f*** it, I think today I'll just lie on the beach and chat with my friends and if I can see someone who just needs directions great but I'm not bailing any more today.
> It's worsened recently because there's been an influx
> of incredibly rude, ignorant people demanding help
> and insulting anyone who does anything less than post
> complete code.
There really has not been a sudden influx. There have always been idiots. Over time there has been a gradual increase but this discussion in pining for the good old days has been happening here since at least 2003.
And as mentioned while the nitwit ratio is probably a little higher than it was two years ago we have managed to throw Goldie and Richard West (and daFei... sort of )and a few other clowns overboard and that's a BIG improvement.
The use of Java in high school AP (advanced placement) courseshave caused an increase in the number of posts in text-message speak.
> There really has not been a sudden influx. There have
> always been idiots. Over time there has been a
> gradual increase but this discussion in pining for
> the good old days has been happening here since at
> least 2003.
Yup. I've been guilty of it in the past.
On reflection I've decided that the idiot ratio correlates closely with how much I'm using the forums. It's not how many of them there are, it's how often you notice them. When you're just nipping in to scan for interesting questions you tend to ignore the homework cheats - whereas if you've got too much time to kill it's easy to obsess about the occasional fruitcake.
Next time you get upset about it, take a break. There's no point in getting het up about losers. Their punishment is being who they are with no reprieve.
> we have
> managed to throw Goldie and Richard West (and
> daFei... sort of )and a few other clowns overboard
I could have sworn Goldie was posting only the other day. Time flies, eh?
And I thought Richard West was Goldie.
I should pay more attention. No, wait, strike that.
> Their punishment is being who they are with no reprieve."Your behaviour is your reward, or your punishment."This may be paraphrasing The Buddha.
I'll try and find the thread from some years back where I was being mocked by jschell for trying rather pathetically to walk off in a huff (never very dignified behaviour on a web forum).The theme of that was "things used to be better". So it's not a new thing.
> I'll try and find the thread from some years back
> where I was being mocked by jschell for trying rather
> pathetically to walk off in a huff (never very
> dignified behaviour on a web forum).
>
> The theme of that was "things used to be better". So
> it's not a new thing.
Not entirely the same topic but close enough.
To whoever it may concern,
"Upgrades" to the Sun Java forums are a byword for incompetence amongst the regular contributors. If you look at the latest fracas, you will find that the loudest complaints were made by those who contribute the most to the *technical* discussions at hand. This is no coincidence. Those who invest most in the community are the most affronted when it is abused by the powers that be.
The problem has several parts, but I think it would be fair to group them into liaison problems, and technical problems. In view of this, I would appreciate it if someone in a position to speak for Sun on these issues would take the time to respond, publicly (i.e. in the Forum Maintenance section) on the following points:
....
Same old, same old. Good times. Good times.
;)
I think both of your comments are echoed even by the OPs own words: "But many of these questions are so ill-researched or off basis that most people don't even know how to respond."
I LOVE writing code examples for people. Its really what I look for when
I come here (aside from getting answers to my silly questions, lol).
But there are fewer and fewer people that come looking for that type of
help (questions condusive to short code examples) and that try to develop a, though brief, friendly exchange with the person helping.
Its a lot of exam questions or "fix my 500 lines of code" questions.
I look at it as a form of Social Darwinism. If someone seems nice,
seems like they will benefit from the help (wont just finish the class
and never code again) and will engage in some smalltalk instead
of just running off with the code then ill code like crazy to help them.
Otherwise, who the hell has the time to do such thankless
and fruitless tasks?
> There really has not been a sudden influx. There have
> always been idiots. Over time there has been a
> gradual increase but this discussion in pining for
> the good old days has been happening here since at
> least 2003.
>
> And as mentioned while the nitwit ratio is probably a
> little higher than it was two years ago we have
> managed to throw Goldie and Richard West (and
> daFei... sort of )and a few other clowns overboard
> and that's a BIG improvement.
Maybe I just didn't notice them at first then. I've only been here about a year, seems to have worsened in the last few months of "how to do hibernate with swings" nonsense. Who was Richard West?
Heh, I've been gone longer than I thought. Last time I came here, there was still a watercooler forum, and I didn't sound like a grumpy old man.
Lol, anyway, i posted my Game programming thread to give newbies a place to start. When i was getting started, I had a bunch of friends who were also interested so I had lots of people to talk to.
For people that don't have the environment that I had, is it maybe too much to expect them to ask more than "How to make my l33t /haxor game?" ? Maybe I expect too much of people.
One thing that is definately different before though are posts like this:
"Chek 0ut th1s sweet game. Thx joo. "
Seriously, what the hell is that?
> Who was Richard West?He played Batman (j/k).
Kids today, eh?I remember when we were just bad at spelling without encroaching upon the top row.
> Heh, I've been gone longer than I thought. Last time
> I came here, there was still a watercooler forum, and
> I didn't sound like a grumpy old man.
>
> Lol, anyway, i posted my Game programming thread to
> give newbies a place to start. When i was getting
> started, I had a bunch of friends who were also
> interested so I had lots of people to talk to.
>
> For people that don't have the environment that I
> had, is it maybe too much to expect them to ask more
> than "How to make my l33t /haxor game?" ? Maybe I
> expect too much of people.
>
> One thing that is definately different before though
> are posts like this:
> "Chek 0ut th1s sweet game. Thx joo. "
>
> Seriously, what the hell is that?
Another bug-bear. Communication skills are definately lacking in a lot of new posters. But what's really galling is the indignation they affect if you dare mention it.
> Kids today, eh?> > I remember when we were just bad at spelling without> encroaching upon the top row."Encroaching upon the top row" is a fantastic phrase. It conjures up images of seedy old Lotharios. Like Uncle Monty working as a typesetter
>
> Maybe I just didn't notice them at first then. I've
> only been here about a year, seems to have worsened
> in the last few months of "how to do hibernate with
> swings" nonsense.
Here's a classic "Do my homework thread" from March of 2005. I say classic because there is a bit of justice done unto the weasel in question starting at reply 53. WARNING do not run the code from that post.
http://forum.java.sun.com/thread.jspa?threadID=604414&start=0&tstart=0
> Who was Richard West?
Bad news, although in the end he reformed. He was a chronic multi-forum cross poster, posted the same messages into multiple forums here, Dev-x, JavaRanch, other places I forget.
Anyway long story short, there was an "incident" coupled with a melt-down of SWLEADERSHIP proportions.
Then continuing nonsense for awhile and then for some reason he realized he was wrong and reformed. And left.
HAHAHA i read that "homework" thread from 2005.
Classic!
I laughed so hard, when the guy actually ran it!
I could have imagined worse done though. Someone could have just deleted his windows directory or something. They were too kind.
Man I can't believe I missed that.
ya know. Maybe the internet is a good thing. People act so civilised and sophisticated in real life, but you see them for what they really are when they're safely behind the keyboard.
And these guys are gonna grow up to be part of our future population, and electoriate....
My faith in humanity is waning....
In case youd like to gain some historic perspective:"Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers."-- Socrates (470-399 B.C.)
I already think that, and I don't even have children yet... oh my...
