Sun Java Studio Creator or Visual Web Pack?
Winston Prakash's Weblog at http://blogs.sun.com/winston/entry/creator_vs_vwp explores the relationship between these almost-twin products.
Which product is more important to you? Do you want both? What if Creator's innovative features were simply merged into NetBeans? Let's consider what futures are possible. Winston's Weblog got the discussion started. We're starting this forum thread to bring more users into the conversation. Read the blog, reply to this thread, and let us know what direction you'd like to see for Creator and/or VWP development.
[574 byte] By [
vspurlina] at [2007-11-26 12:32:26]
# 1
I've used Creator since its origin (1 -> 2ea -> 2 -> 2.1), for about 2 years now.
And now has switched to netbeans + vwp (I dont use portlets + web services),
Netbeans + vwp works really well. I easely converted my project to java ee 5
So If I started from scratch right now I definetly choose netbeans + vwp instead of creator
Roman.
P.S. And I prefer you guys concentrate on one codebase. What I really need is stable and functional product.
# 2
Hi,
I've used Creator for 2 years as well, and i'm beginning to be thrilled with it. Phenomenal job...thanks Creator team!
Have not switched to VWP yet, waiting for it to get some good reviews, and stabilize. I'd really like to do that, though, to avoid switching back and forth between 2 IDEs, and get all the benefits of Netbeans.
Going forward, I think VWP+NB is the right direction. I think Creator should be completely merged into Netbeans, and the sooner the better.
We don't want to have to track two different products, not knowing which one to choose or migrate to or from. Also, being a software engineer myself, I feel having one codebase is really important, so all energy is focussed there, instead of having to support two versions of it.
Simply speaking, the overlap between JSC & VWP is so huge, that it makes very little sense to continue both. Keeping both products alive would create an ovehead for both the product team, and the developement community.
Also, I believe phasing out JSC, would move a lot of people over to Netbeans, growing the Netbeans community, and also improving Netbeans as a platform.
The creator community would become the VWP community, JSC product would become VWP, and both the product and the community could retain it's individual character, and leverage Netbeans as well as drive Netbeans towards greater heights!
So, I say, let's move on to VWP + Netbeans. And let's work to make that the best web app developement platform!
Regards
Haroon
# 3
For more information on the differences between Java Studio Creatorand Visual Web Pack for NetBeans 5.5, see Winston's article at http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/reference/techart/2/crea tor_vwp.html
# 4
I have been using Java Studio Creator for more than a year now. Before that I have mostly used Eclipse or sometimes IBM's Rational IDE (which is also based on Eclipse, but costs about $10K for full featured version -- Rational Software Architect). I have also worked with VisualStudio.Net IDE in the past for ASP.Net apps. Here are my thoughts:
1. In the ASP/.Net world, you don't have to worry much picking and choosing the best IDE. VS.Net is pretty much the best out there for ASP/.Net/Windows world. However, in case of Java world, there are too many choices with too many IDEs, each with its own strengths and weaknesses. For example, JSC is the best for web applications, but its does not provide J2EE features available in Eclipse/NetBeans. Eclipse has the most market share and has tons of plug-ins, but there is nothing better out there than NetBean's profiler. Rational has its own strengths with most of the configurations done visually (i.e visual editing of web.xml, and other config files), excellent data and business modeling, but its JSF and visual web development support is pathetic. I just downloaded the latest and greatest version, Rational Software Architect 7.0 - which was released a month ago - and it still lags far behind JSC for visual web development and server based events. The bottom line is that there is no one Java IDE that is as good as VisualStudio.Net is for ASP/Windows world -- if they start supporting cross platform, i.e JSF and J2EE, I will migrate to it right away.
2. I was an Eclipse user, and JSC caught my attention and it made me explore NetBeans. Now I am evaluating NetBeans with visual web pack to possibly switch to NetBeans. I think merging JSC and NetBeans has can potentially switch many developers to NetBeans. It will result in increase in NetBean's market share for Java IDE and make it less confusing for developers to figure out which IDE to use.
# 5
> However, in case of Java world, there are too
> many choices with too many IDEs, each with its own
> strengths and weaknesses
Yes, Sabir, choice and competition are bad. Why should I have to pick and choose the best tools with which I will develop my application? I wish Sun or IBM would just dictate everything to me. Freedom of choice just makes my head hurt.
I've been using Visual Studio 2005 for the past year, and although some things in it are better than JSC (themes in JSC suck), it is, in general, a steaming pile... that's just my opinion.
Maybe someday VS will have
* support for proper refactoring
* more powerful editor (like Eclipse)
* easy cross browser functionality development(sure, it can be done, but they throw enough little things in there to 'get you' where it becomes difficult)
* Wider selection of default components (where are tabs?)
* integration with Subversion / CVS
* unit testing (that doesn't cost an arm and a leg)
* easy documentation generator like javadoc
* proper intellisense that tells me when methods are deprecated
* ability to view hierarchical information about a particular class
* ability to easily search and fine a particular class (like eclipse does it)
* ability to clean up my imports
* ability to run/develop on something other than windows
I could keep listing it's deficiencies, but I grow weary.
Message was edited by:
Tosa_Developer
# 6
I look at the differences between JSC and VWP a bit differently I guess.
I see them as one code base (at least in the future I hope) with two different developer types as their audience, and packaged to meet those developer audiences.
JSC is great for developers that work in a shop that tells the developer, "Here, connect a GUI on top of these Web Services and EJB's". The developer doesn't have the need to write WS code or EJB code, just to be able to quickly drop a GUI on top of someone elses code.
Now for VWP, this works best in a shop were everything is done by the same developers. They have to write EJB's today, WS tomorrow, and maybe slap a quick prototype GUI on the whole thing while they are at it, or even polish up the GUI for the final project.
These two developer types are no different then what has existed in the WWW development world for years. The HTML designer would toss a form back to the CGI guy ( that only worked at night and didn't want to talk to other people ;-) ) for connecting the HTML to the backend databases and such.
# 7
I am very happy with NetBeans and the VWP plugin. As I am currently looking at collaborating with another developer who will use JPA, we can easily both use NetBeans to work on projects together.
This would not be quite so simple if we worked on separate IDEs, which would be necessary if I continued to use Creator.
I also love the JBoss deployment I get with NetBeans as that is our target.
# 8
Right now, the biggest deficiency with VWP plugin is that it does not support portlet development. Other than that, it appears to have nearly all of the functionality of JSC.
# 9
I think the best path to follow is to support VWP instead of having JSC be a separate product. When will VWP have support for portlets?
# 10
The Netbeans site is best place to find answers to VWP questions. I searched netbeans.org for "portlet", drilled into the search results, and found the JSF Portlet Builder is planned for Netbeans 6.0. At http://wiki.netbeans.org/wiki/view/Development under Planning see the NB6FeaturesTBD page. This page lists features that are planned, but their place on the overall NB 6.0 schedule is TBD.
# 11
Hi,
I love the features offered by the JSC2.1 , however as some of you have rightly pointed out , it make no sense to continue with the development of jsc2 espcially if both JSC2 and VWP are trying to acheive or offer the same functionality .
Let pool all the resources together to work on the VWP as I think it would be much easier to offer the VWP as an add on,encompass the functionality and user friendly of modern GUI (JSC2)
to keep abreast with the java technology development for the benenfit of java community.
# 12
> I look at the differences between JSC and VWP a bit
> differently I guess.
>
> I see them as one code base (at least in the future I
> hope) with two different developer types as their
> audience, and packaged to meet those developer
> audiences.
>
> JSC is great for developers that work in a shop that
> tells the developer, "Here, connect a GUI on top of
> these Web Services and EJB's". The developer doesn't
> have the need to write WS code or EJB code, just to
> be able to quickly drop a GUI on top of someone elses
> code.
>
> Now for VWP, this works best in a shop were
> everything is done by the same developers. They have
> to write EJB's today, WS tomorrow, and maybe slap a
> quick prototype GUI on the whole thing while they are
> at it, or even polish up the GUI for the final
> project.
>
> These two developer types are no different then what
> has existed in the WWW development world for years.
> The HTML designer would toss a form back to the CGI
> guy ( that only worked at night and didn't want to
> talk to other people ;-) ) for connecting the HTML
> to the backend databases and such.
I believe peppertech has it right. As one of the "rave"* tool developers, there will be one engineering team working on one code base. In the future, "Creator" may be a specially packaged version of "NetBean VWP". As I understand it, the plan is to attempt to add Creator features to NetBeans.
For those that want to try VWP, I tried to distill the install instructions to a recommended configuration similar to what an all-in-one download of Creator would provide. See http://blogs.sun.com/edwingo/entry/installing_netbeans_5_5_visual.
* "Rave" is the code name of the team that wrote "Creator" and now "NetBeans VWP".
-Edwin
http://blogs.sun.com/edwingo/
# 13
I think a combined effort on Netbeans + Visual Web Pack is definately the way to go.
I'd love to one day see the Netbeans IDE be able to work well with extremely large projects as Eclipse does.
Hopefully by combining the Sun Java Studio Creator features in it should help get us there.
Go Netbeans!
# 14
JSC I'll miss you! <Sniff /> You were so good to me!
# 15
For me webservices are very important. So, I can't very well migrage to vwp yet.However, I definitely think that Sun should move toward VWP and away from additional JSC versions. Please make web services a priority.Thanks.
uvneta at 2007-7-21 15:37:44 >
# 16
But what about performance issue in NB with VWP?I have seen Athlon 3800+ computer with 1Gb RAM hanging for several minutes when trying just reorder items on a jsf page?
# 17
> But what about performance issue in NB with VWP?
>
> I have seen Athlon 3800+ computer with 1Gb RAM
> hanging for several minutes when trying just reorder
> items on a jsf page?
I was not aware of one with VWP -- I'll ask.
-Edwin
http://blogs.sun.com/edwingo/
# 18
Hello AChervov,
I can't reproduce the VWP performance problem that you describe, and have not heard other reports of such a severe problem. We discussed this, as Edwin said, and we want to track it down. Please contact me offline and email as many as possible of the following to: vaughn dot spurlin at sun dot com.
- a fresh copy of your messages.log file
- thread dump while it's happening
- steps to reproduce the problem
- zip of a project that demonstrates the problem
To get a fresh copy of your messages.log file, rename or delete your existing [netbeans-user-directory]/var/log/messages.log file, then restart the IDE. A new messages.log file will be created.
To get a thread dump, see http://qa.netbeans.org/bugzilla/generating-thread-dumps.html.
# 19
So it sounds to me that if I'm developing a Java desktop application via NetBeans, and my projects also requires website access to the same data, then I need to develop the latter as a Web Portal via "Creator".
To put it a different way, my boss asked me if there was any way to convert a NetBeans desktop app to work on the web. I believe that is not possible at this point.
Thank you,
Bob
# 20
Bob, you're exactly correct. The underlying technologies are quite different, so converting a desktop app to a web app is best done by reimplementing a new web app with NetBeans Visual Web Pack or Sun Java Studio Creator. If we hear substantial requests for a tool to automate the conversion, we could consider it. It wouldn't be simple, and we haven't heard many voices with that request.
# 21
Hi again,
So to take it one step further: if I do build my web app, would I be able to reuse the business logic already built into the desktop app ? In other words, if I'm building some GUI's for the web portal how do I plug into the business logic that already exists ? Does this specifically have to do with reusing EJB's ?
Of course this can be a more generic response at this point, as I am still going up the Java learning curve (however with asp.net web dev experience).
Thank you again,
Bob
# 22
Two other options for running your Desktop app would be to run it as an applet or run it using Java Webstart.
# 23
Definitely you can reuse business logic that is adequately separated from the presentation in a desktop app. A Java Studio Creator app can include a JAR that has business logic in POJOs, and can use EJBs or web services. NetBeans Visual Web Pack can use business logic in POJOs now, and will be able to access EJBs and web services with the next release. See the tutorials and examples under "Working with Web Services" and "EJB Components" at http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/reference/index.jsp.
# 24
I think netbeans + vwp ist the better way.Regards, Eugen.
drutaa at 2007-7-21 15:37:44 >
# 25
The most important thing I'd love is total VWD+NetBeans support for developing JSF and EJB 3.0 applications by a way of drag and drop binding operations on the EJB session bean methods as it is done in Oracle JDeveloper. I think ejb and jsf specifications are said to be merged and if so a tooling support by vwd+netbeans is imperative.
Long live Netbeans!
# 26
I have a fairly large application that I have been working on for about a year (clean and build copies/deletes over 800 files).
This application has a lot of images that are used for buttons and panel backgrounds.
I have tried a couple times to move this to NetBeans from JSC and have not been able to do so.
A bunch of the images for buttons and panel backgrounds seem to get trashed and look like hammered s**t.
Intrestingly enough, it seems to be hit and miss.
The images are all jpg and some display fine and others are trashed.
Button images are the worst. Virtually all of them are trashed.
I have experienced bleedthrough for the panel images where I get background bleeding through where text is.
I like the idea that Netbeans seems to have a bit of an advantage with plugins and the like,
but the image problem stops me dead in my tracks.
I have another application that uses IceFaces and my initial attempt to port that was also not successful.
Basically, I could not get IceFaces to set up properly. Probably could have figured it out,
but since the main project needs to remain in JSC, I figure it's probably better to just stick with one IDE.
# 27
Me too. After several failing attempts of importing jsc's project, I abandoned the idea of using the netbeans for now. Maybe I'll try it again in Netbeans 6 in the future. Another thing that is quite different from JSC is the way netbeans automatically generating DSN, which I can't change it easily.
The most benefit of using Netbeans for me is that it uses Tomcat, so the development and production servers are the same. Right now, I have to use sun app server for development, and I have to check it again using Oracle's JDBC driver. Since Sun's JDBC driver for oracle and Oracle's jdbc driver behave differently.
# 28
Hello burferd and discusfish - There is a free, limited time offer from Sun's product development engineers to help migrate Creator apps to VWP. See tne nbusers mailing list posting "help make migrating to VWP on NB 6.0 a better experience - free offer for the taking..." at http://www.nabble.com/help-make-migrating-to-VWP-on-NB-6.0-a-better-experience- --free-offer-for-the-taking...-tf3561265.html
If that doesn't help, then can you get the problem to happen with a simple app? We'd like to fix the problem, and need a reproducable test case.
# 29
burferd/discusfish - As pointed out, if either of you are interested in this offer please get in touch with me via the following alias:
raveqa-testapps AT sun.com
After which, we'll proceed with migrating your applications onto NB 6.0 and fix any bugs we may come across when porting the applications. The applications will be kept confidential. If it has proprietary information/technology, we'll need to first go through Legal, but do let me know ahead of time.
The idea is to make migration for Creator users in NB 6.0 an easier to follow process than what you may have experienced in the past releases - the only way to get that quality though is to test with real-world examples. Hope you will take up on the offer.
Regards,
Sandeep (a.k.a. skj)
Java Studio Creator/Visual Web Pack/NetBeans
skja at 2007-7-21 15:37:44 >
# 30
I believe merging the two products in the back ground, is probably the best way to go, but what attracted me to the Java Studio Creator was its simplicity. With other IDEs I found I had to wade through a whole lot of stuff I didn't fully understand, to get to what I wanted to do, never quite confident that I was doing the right thing. JS Creator gave me a clear straight forward path. I don't think you want to lose that. The JS Creator brand and offering is important to people like me. Providing Net Beans configuration in a "JS Creator" way/bundle, would be the best approach. Maybe call it the 'Java Studio Creator' Pack. Keep the JS Creator website with it particular focus. JS Creator is a good entree for developers into the Java world. I think if I went and used Net Beans now, I would understand it alot better.
I personally have gone off in multiple IDE/Framework directions and have been feeling very frustrated with the Java 'maze'. JS Creator has brought me back to Sun.
Message was edited by:
A-Gilmore
# 31
It's clear that most developers prefer all their tools in a single, integrated product. That's where we're headed with NetBeans 6.0, announced in the note "See the Future of Java Studio Creator" on the Creator front page http://developers.sun.com/jscreator/index.jsp.
But most developers don't need everything that NetBeans offers, all at once. The new NetBeans installer lets you choose the features you need, then gives you a single, integrated installer with the features you chose. You can use the installer now to download the NetBeans 6.0 (Milestone 9) Technical Preview. To approximate the Java Studio Creator product, select Java IDE, Web and Java EE, and Java System App Server 9.1.
# 32
Hi,
I think after all experts have given their opinions about JSC we may see Creator2_1 will transform itself from a beautiful butterfly into a grotessque technological monster. Why can't we give a novice a chance to experiment to enter the web world like creator2_1 is successfully doing last couple of years? I think lot can be done with Creator2_1 to simplify and enhance its existing features and allow it to grow further. Please don't repeat the example of what happenned to a beautiful language like C when Microsoft developed visual C.
regards,
dr.am.mohan rao
Madana at 2007-7-21 15:37:49 >
# 33
I think that the netbeans vwp should be taken off and JSC should be the sole visual enabled development IDE, so that it can specialize in the visiual capabilities direction independantly from NetBeans, and Im sure NetBeans does have its own growing to do.
However, the projects should be capable of opening in either IDE so that there is better seamless development in case of division of labour from front-end to backend/advanced prgramming;
Im thinking like kind of a Batman&Robin combo.
# 34
I am almost finished with a painful transition from JSC to NB+VWP5.5.1, I believe this states my views on the subject. I am all in favor of simplification. Even if we lose some functionality from JSC in order to go to the more complicated NB+VWP IDE, I feel it is worth it. Also, if the programmer resources necessary for JSC will focus on NB - all the better.
# 35
What was painful in the transition? I hope the document "Importing a Sun Java Studio Creator 2 Project in NetBeans Visual Web Pack 5.5" at http://www.netbeans.org/kb/55/vwp-migration.html and the NetBeans Visual Web Pack FAQs at http://wiki.netbeans.org/wiki/view/NetBeansVWPUserFAQ were helpful. Can you cite specific issues that need more explanation in the migration document or the FAQs?
One of the goals for VWP is to keep as much of Creator's functionality intact as possible, although significant archtectural changes were necessary to integrate the code. If you can identify fuctionality that you're missing, perhaps I can suggest a workaround.
Yes, you're right. Creator required considerable highly talented programmer resources, and most of the resources have refocused on NetBeans. What's new and noteworthy in completed and upcoming NetBeans 6.0 IDE milestone builds at http://wiki.netbeans.org/wiki/view/NewAndNoteWorthy shows that they're still working hard and producing plenty.
# 36
Vaughn, thank you for your interest in my migration efforts. My biggest hurdle is being a "lone geek", and being brand-new to the web world with its unique language.
My next hurdle was to resolve the missing server that did not import from JSCU1, then to resolve the missing data source. My biggest time sink was figuring out to load the ojdbc14.jar into the AppServer\lib directory. I had to play with the driver class syntax which changed from JSCU1.
After I established a data connection, I struggled with the XML configuration files used in JAAS. That went pretty smooth - only about 4 hours to figure that out.
Finally, I am currently stuck on a "Cannot Commit" when I attempt to update an entry in a table bound to my Oracle database, a problem that occurred in JSC - and I was hoping might be cured by NB. After scouring this group, and posting a question with no response, and searching the NBUsers list, I paid for an Expert Assistance incident on Thursday (today is Saturday), and am very dismayed to discover that the expert technicians only work during regular working hours! I am seriously worried my boss is going to tell me to drop web development and go back to M$ Access because I'm taking so long on this project.
Hey, I feel everybody's passion for Net Beans, and I have it too. I have staked my reputation on it, and if I can get past this last hurdle I may still be a hero at my work.
# 37
What's the subject and timestamp of the message you posted to nbusers? I'll see if I can get some attention for it.
# 38
Thank you so much, but I just found more specific error information. Instead of taking space in this topic, I will send another email to NBUsers entitled "Duplicate Data Source References on import from JSC2U1".
# 39
Hi
I'm duplicating my suggestion to this forum:
This may be all you need to do:
Open SessionBean1.java (or where you specified your datasource to
be created) expand the _init() method - use the Navigator to help find
_init()
Then delete the 3 lines corresponding to the datasource that you want
removed
As an example, if I want to delete the Person datasource
I would delete the lines in _init()
personRowSet.setDataSourceName("java:comp/env/jdbc/TRAVEL_ApacheDerby");
personRowSet.setCommand("SELECT * FROM TRAVEL.PERSON");
personRowSet.setTableName("PERSON");
- John
jawbea at 2007-7-21 15:37:49 >
# 40
Regarding the driver not getting copied to the Glassfish Application Server, hopefully for 6.0 FCS this will be fixed so NetBeans will copy the driver automatically
Concerning the commit error, please provide the server.log file
from Glassfish , located in the domains/domain1/logs/server.log
John
jawbea at 2007-7-21 15:37:49 >
