SUN TEAM : OFFICALLY THE WORST IDE I HAVE EVER USED...
After doing work for 3 hours and 5 shutdowns of JSC + app server, my frustration is taking the form of an email, as I need an outlet to convey my utter dismay at how bad this product actually is.
I am afraid to right click in case the screens goes grey.
I am afraid to debug becase that can take a day to start!
I am afraid to try and move a component and it actually shut down JSC today!
How may years in development has this been going on? Seems like a week to me at the minute and the mood I am in with it..
I feel like moving to NetBean5.5 with JSC embedded, but I don't have any faith in SUN related IDE's at the minute.
Not that IBM RAD + JSF is any better functionality wise, but it is a million times better as an IDE and performance wise.
I await your comments with baited breath, as I am sure there are some ardent SUN fans ready to give me a few words...
Regards,
LOTI
# 1
Wow. 3 hours and 5 shutdown? I admit that JSC some how is sluggish, but I haven't got such bad experience. I am using P4 3Ghz, and 2 GB of RAM. I think the RAM should be at least 2GB in order to use the JSC conveniently. I used to have only 1GB RAM, and occasionally I have to quit the jsc to free the memory. But, with 2 GB, it is perfectly ok.
I've experienced very slow responses sometimes, for example editing with query designer in oracle 10g, but somehow I've managed to find out why, and find the work around for that. All I can do is to post that problem here, and hoping that the JSC team (or others) will find the solution for me now and use it to improve the next release (whatever that is, JSC or Netbeans+VWP).
Maybe I haven't got into the problem like you, for example I have only at the most 50 jsps in single project, but I heard from this forum that somone has at least 200 jsps in single project. In my opinion (my humble opinion), despite of all the weaknesses/problems, I see that JSC is the best option right now for me, who is a newbie in J2EE and Web programming. I've tried the Eclipse + myEclipse plug-in, but to me, jsc is easier to use.
So, for your case, I guess, maybe it is time for you to get a profesional support from SUN (with extra cost, of course). And hopefully, find a solution for that.
I am now evaluating Netbeans 5.5+VWP. But, still I think, it lacks of a support from the forum like here. In this forum I can find a lot of people willing to help for a single topic, JSC. In neatbeans, I find it that it is too broad. I guess they have to create a forum specific for VWP. Or, maybe I just can't see the forum there. First impression, Netbeans 5.5 + VWP is FASTER than JSC2. But in some area, I find it quite different, for exampe, about Data Source Name, it's different. In JSC I have to create and to name the DSN, in netbeans, I can not NAME the connetion (not sure if they call it as DSN there). But, my feeling say that eventually we will move to netbeans+VWP.
In conclusion, I think, JSC's team deserves a credit here. AND it is the same for participants in here. Thanks to you all.
# 2
In reply to your comment it being the worst IDE you have ever used, I SINCERELY feel your frustration. First time I installed Creator and started it up I was expecting the responsiveness of netbeans 5.5 but I was wrong. It takes Creator a full 1.5 minutes+ longer or more to start up than netbeans. Even after the Hotfix 2 using Creator was like running through a swimming pool full of molasses in winter. I use VMware regularly on my box, running entire OPERATING SYSTEMS on my box using other full featured IDE's INSIDE vmware! And I can claim to this day that I still do not experience the slowness that Creator has shown me. In fact Creator has frustrated me on so many occassions with it's lack of responsiveness I have considered doing a Monty Python "Creator" spoof on YouTube just to vent my frustration on how slow it is or I'd probally end up smashing my computer (Use humor to vent your frustration sometimes).
Since Sun is going to make Creator open Source Iam seriously considering being part of the volunteer team to figure out why in the he*! is the IDE so freaking slow! Iam thinking they are implementing some seriously inefficent/inappropiate algorithms in the code base. But to be fair this IDE is something truly amazing in concept, I've often thought about creating a IDE such as this for rapid application web development. I seriously hope that SUN invests the necessary resources to get this IDE ready for serious consideration by the Enterprise.
In fair consideration to the Creator Team I sincerely thank you all for the IDE. It's just that well, you gotta at least set some reasonable constraints on how responsive this IDE is suppose to be. But all in all I guess Creator is suppose to be the "Vista" of IDE's in terms of power hungry hardware requirements. So to be fair I will completely build me a new box with at least 2 Gigs DDR2 ram and AMD rating of 4800 for CPU. Well in excess of the minimum requirements. I just hope Iam not disappointed. In response to the original poster I suggest you do the same, If you still get slow response from the IDE, then I suggest you seriously raise some he$! to SUN about it.
# 3
I don't think it is the worst IDE ever, but what I can tell you for certain is
that it requires at least 2GB DDR2 and for the processor I can't tell
you yet (we are testing...).
For debugging you can try deploying your application in JBoss
and debug with Eclipse, the difference (in minutes) is huge.
We have a project with about 150 jsp and it is just the beginning,
so we really hope to see improvements in SJSC performance.
mono.
mono at 2007-7-7 12:10:27 >
# 4
Folks,
Thanks for the previous posts on your expereinces with JSC. I guarantee we are only the tip of the iceberg of frustated people with this product.
I do commend SUN for what they have achieved in terms of JSF functionality, navigation, etc. But it counts for nothing if the IDE can't be used !!
I am probably enemy number one for the JSC dev team, but I don't give a damn. A few home truths need to be said.
I have a top of the range PC 2gig ram, etc,etc. It could have 4 gig and still run like a dog. I donm't know what JSC is developed in, but something needs to be done to fix it.
If only Eclipse with JSF could be used. Thats my xmas wish. A decent JSF IDE..
I am still in favour with JSC, but with each week this is slowly fading. A shame really. Great potential, let down by the IDE from hell.
Regards,
LOTI
# 5
managed to get a whole 2 hours tonight with reasonable work done. only had to shutdown twice. thats a record..
used Eclipse in work today for 8 hours on top of a websphere server in debug mode and not one probelm. thats the standard this app has to beat, and at the minute it is nowhere near that level of quality, robustness and reliability.
# 6
Well, since you are the only one having to restart every few minutes there is obliviously something unique about your computer or something you are doing. Personally, I've worked in JSC for over 6 hours so far today without having to restart once.
Have you tried deleting your creator user dir? How about reinstalling JSC? What about reinstalling the whole OS? I find I have to reinstall windows about once a year because some buggy software breaks the whole thing and it is quicker to reinstall then to try to track down the problem. What kind of computer do you have? I've seen weird crashing issues with some Dell models. Is the application server the only thing crashing or does the IDE crash too? Are there any error logs from the crashes? Are you doing anything specific when it crashes?
By the way, if you are enemy number one for the Sun dev team as you say you are, I am guessing it is probably because of your attitude and not because you are reporting problems. Constantly staring new threads to tell everyone that JSC is a "crap ide" and "garbage" does not exactly inspire people to help you.
jsr at 2007-7-7 12:10:27 >
# 7
Not certain what problems you are having but we just completed a 150 page, EJB persisted project using Creator as the development tool for the pages. We've had some difficulty here and there, particularly with some of the new components and getting the precise behavior we wanted. We've used may IDE's including Eclipse, Jbuilder, Rational, and the proverbial 'emacs' amongst others. I do agree there are some issues with the speed of the IDE, particularly for large programs. We found, for example, that the parse of the java source for the navigation pane is slow if the program is large or has a lot of components. However, this is far from the worst IDE ever and certainly has the potential to be quite good. I'm looking forward to new components, more flexible behavior control (particularly the javascript and class controls in the themes), and improved speed. I also think the move to Netbeans will be helpful as there are many useful features already built into Netbeans. Since we also use EJB for persistence most of the time, it would be nice to have a single environment.
# 8
One thing to check if you are having problems with the server is to check how many deployed apps you have in the Creator domain. In the Servers window, expand Deployment Server > Deployed Components. If you see a long list, consider getting rid of some.
As one of the tech writers, I am always experimenting and recreating my apps over and over again, or testing other writers' apps and end up with a long list. I find that the app server is more responsive if I keep my deployed apps lean.
# 9
i admit my language has been a bit strong and my attitude not the most endearing, but is just my frustration coming through....
My computer is indeed a Dell. The problem is that the IDE will just freeze up and turn grey after a while. I have to shut down server and IDE then.
i will look at what I have deployed and remove all that i do not need and see if that helps.
# 10
Since moving to a new Macbook Pro I've encountered no problems with the IDE and it performs quite well. LOTI is not alone in voicing her displeasure, and it appears that problems are being fixed, albeit slower than we may like.
I've seemed to avoid a lot of the problems by using hibernate/spring in my persistence layer... that allows me to avoid the database/data binding problems others have experienced.
I've also found that JSC runs best on Linux and Mac OS X. I know that won't help most people, but it may help some.
# 11
LOTI,
First, you said, "I am probably enemy number one for the JSC dev team". I'm the Creator evangelist and I've worked on the dev team for a few years. I can guarantee that the development team welcomes comments about Creator that work toward making it a better IDE. I'm sorry for your frustration. The development team worked very hard and smart to fix some major performance problems for the last performance hot fix. Obviously, you've hit some usage pattern that has uncovered some other issues.
We would very much appreciate some details on what your normal use case is for Creator to see if this problem can be repeated then fixed. What does your development cycle look like? For example, do you add a component, set a breakpoint, go into debug, step through code, then repeat this process over and over?
Jetsons has suggested keeping a "lean" app server. Another suggestion after doing lots of deploys is to "clean" the Creator app server domain. Doing this basically deletes the Sun app server domain, recreates it, then deploys the sample apps.Here's how to reset the domain.
Go to the "creator_install_dir\bin" directory and run:
pe-start.bat -reset
Again, please give us details about your process so we can try to make Creator better.
Thanks!
-David
# 12
David,
Nice to meet one of the Creator evangelists at last. I have stuck with JSC for over a year now, and have been championing its cause to many of my colleagues. But recently, frustration has got the better of me. Thanks for your response on this issue. I will do a cleanup of appserver and let you know how this went.
As a senior developer myself, I know what it is like when people go off the deep end without backing their case up. I do apologise for what i said before,as a few comments were heat of the moment stuff when it was near midnight and the IDE kept freezing up. Hence, my frustration.
I do use debug quite a lot. Any small change I would set up a breakpoint and run debug mode again and check local variables, etc to ensure correct data coming through.
After a while of creating a few pages, dropping components and running project, the IDE freezes up and goes grey.There is no set usage pattern that triggers this.
I will check tha app server settings. I still wish for a cut down dev server to increase performance if this is possible.
Regards,
LOTI
# 13
on winxp
buy 5 gigs of memory
or
right click my computer
click advanced tab -> click Performance settings "Button"
click advanced tab ->on bottom of screen-Virtual Memory-Change
say to 20500MB or what ever
important:-(occasionally do a "Disk Cleanup")
If the ide is keeping everything in memory it might think about
swapping out to disk for some processes with low priority
the above helps this newbie; JasperReports is Awesome on Creator
Eventually I will buy a sun machine with plenty of memory
# 14
LOTI,
How are things going? Have things improved? Please give an update. BTW, as far as app servers go, you could follow the example in help(http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/reference/docs/help /2update1/deploy/howtodeploy/deploy_tomcat.html) on deploying to Tomcat. Note that there are things you will need to set up with data sources, etc. You basically then export a WAR to the tomcat hotdeploy directory.
Preferably we would resolve your performance issues in the roundtrip development environment in Creator but perhaps doing this would help us determine if the app server was causing problems.
Thanks!
-David
# 15
Check the tutorial Divas' blog for tips on getting an older leaner version of Sun Appserver to work. That is if you're not using EJBs or some other newfangled stuff... http://blogs.sun.com/divas/entry/when_a_web_server_is
# 16
Another alternative is the Web Server, which you can deploy to from the menu (the IDE makes the war for you and does the connection pool stuff). See http://blogs.sun.com/divas/entry/when_a_web_server_is.
# 17
Thanks for the tips on the alternatives. I will try them out.
Undeploying all my apps from the server has definetly helped. The IDE is a bit more responsive and I can work for longer without problems. However I still get to a point when I need to shut the server down and the project will not run. Its not as problematic as before, just means I lose 5 mins or so. I can easily live with that compared to before.
Hopefully the slimmer app servers will help me as I don't use EJB's.
Regards,
LOTI
# 18
Well at first I did not like this IDE either but it has grown on me!! I can actually use the JNI API in this IDE which is amazing! I did experience shut downs and the application server does not flush out the JNI .dll that I load in the memory. To do this, I have to close my IDE and shut the server down and restart the IDE which is slow but my application works awesome by using this and I do have a deadline but I figure I should be done on target.
What I found bad and left a REALLY BAD TASTE IN MY MOUTH was not getting a response from SUN in regards to PURCHASING SUPPORT (Sun Java Studio Creator 2 Update 1 Premium Service Plan 1-year) for 1,200 USD and I actually convinced my management to purchase this support package and you know what, I couldnt get the responce from SUN if the JNI worked in this API and as a result, SUN lost $1200.00 USD.
It took a lot of research to find the answer to that question. The SUN company could not return my phone call ( i did that on line instant messaging with a customer service rep that said I would be contacted and that was 3 months ago...)
Overall its a decent IDE but it does have its quirks. I just wish that SUN would have called me like I was told they would have... I guess its business or lack of it anyways, I just needed to you guys know that JSC is not a bad and the forum is a great place to get answers, almost better than paid technical support...
# 19
I know how you feel about Creator, it is extremely slow to the point of being user non-friendly. But then I heard about Netbeans 5.5 and the Visual Web Pack. At first I was hesitant to switch because at the time I was using the field guides and I was sure I would not be able to finish them with netbeans. But after switching over to the netbeans 5.5 + VWP, I was pleasantly surprised.
It has the same look and feel as Sun Studio Creator and it's waaaaaaaay more faster and responsive. In terms of well, basically everything. When it took Studio Creator over 2 minutes to compile and deploy a sample application, it would take netbeans 5.5 + VWP about <~ 14 seconds (No JOKE).
The change and responsiveness was so drastic that I thought I has missed something. But the truth is there is obviously some sort of Algorithms in the Creator Code Base which has been very badly implemented and is a huge resource drain (memory leaks) unless you are running a relatively mid to high end hardware (2 gigs+ of memory).
Netbeans codebase apparently on the other hand appears to be coded much, much more efficently and it runs more smoother on all sorts of hardware. The only thing that I hear netbeans + VWP lacks is portlet support. I seriously hope the the sun developers read this and decide to put Creator aside and give full support for the netbeans + VWP.
And to anyone else thats having a hard time with creator, I strongly urge you to go to Netbeans 5.5 + VWP. It may end up saving you time, money, your sanity and your credibilty among your coworkers if your trying to find an alternative to the Visual Studio niche in the corporate enterprise.
# 20
I know how you feel about Creator, it is extremely slow to the point of being user non-friendly. But then I heard about Netbeans 5.5 and the Visual Web Pack. At first I was hesitant to switch because at the time I was using the field guides and I was sure I would not be able to finish them with netbeans. But after switching over to the netbeans 5.5 + VWP, I was pleasantly surprised.
It has the same look and feel as Sun Studio Creator and it's waaaaaaaay more faster and responsive. In terms of well, basically everything. When it took Studio Creator over 2 minutes to compile and deploy a sample application, it would take netbeans 5.5 + VWP about <~ 14 seconds (No JOKE).
The change and responsiveness was so drastic that I thought I had missed something. But the truth is there is obviously some sort of Algorithms in the Creator Code Base which has been very badly implemented and is a huge resource drain (memory leaks) unless you are running a relatively mid to high end hardware (2 gigs+ of memory).
Netbeans codebase apparently on the other hand appears to be coded much, much more efficently and it runs more smoother on all sorts of hardware. The only thing that I hear netbeans + VWP lacks is portlet support. I seriously hope the the sun developers read this and decide to put Creator aside and give full support for the netbeans + VWP.
And to anyone else thats having a hard time with creator, I strongly urge you to go to Netbeans 5.5 + VWP. It may end up saving you time, money, your sanity and your credibilty among your coworkers if your trying to find an alternative to the Visual Studio niche in the corporate enterprise.
# 21
Hi,
I used JSC to develop among others two free web applications that are ready to launch. The project involves classification of over 2.5 million abstracts in National Library of Medicine and setting up links using disease tree nodes. I successfully developed two apps each of about 700 treenodes on single page which connect to individual html files having further links to server at NLM. I had difficulty in creating so many nodes on a single page. But I could acheive it with some patience. I only used windows XP on 1.6GHz, 640MB RAM machine. I agree working with JSC fully is frustrating because of its slowness. I develop all my programs in C environment and use JSC for hosting the web application. Therefore, for large projects it seems convenient to take small pieces of programs and debug them in someother environment. Hopefully JSC team can improve on its temporal performance by finding time consumed at each computation. Say if you are using 100 header files, each having some 10 functions, one can easily find unacceptable computations and rectify them. I think it is not that difficult.
Madana at 2007-7-21 15:33:41 >
# 22
As most techies know, Windows has a very slow memory management subsystem which leaks through holes the size of a car port. FreeBSD's memory management for a decade has been on the top and it's no mistake that OS X does a better job then Windows even with a giant bloated wickedly candylike GUI. Vista on the otherhand runs with the same memory problems carried over from all the other mashed up Windows releases and then stresses it by requiring it to put out more memory allocation routines. LOL.
Sorry, pedantic experience point from my experiences with Windows through the years. On a side note, OSX frees memory like a dog, SLOW. No comment about Solaris or Linux here... Linux as uncontrolled and annoying as it changes has pretty good memory management, and Solaris handles like a champ with large amounts of data. I use Mac OS X and Windows normally so I'd rather not give further insight as it'd be blind to say I truely know the innerworkings of Solaris or Linux's depths.
Not everyone should be forced to have a 64-bit machine just because JSC thinks it needs chunks of memory the size of the titanic... this is a desktop application not a 6TB mission critical Oracle database on Fibre Channel NAS.
Netbeans is clearly not hungry by any means if you compare it to Eclipse or CodeGear JBuilder. But against Visual Studio which isn't exactly a Java IDE per se (J++ is an obfuscation really) is debatable because already loaded dlls integral to the system reduce fingerprint and runtime memory consumption because the native UI toolkit is preloaded anyways. (Same goes with IE memory usage and startup time)
I'm just getting into Java and I find Netbeans a great treat, and I find the profiler and web pack useful for future projects once I'm competant enough.
# 23
Dear Customer
Please accept our sincere apologies with regards to the service in trying to
purchase a support contract. We have followed up on your forum posting
and have reviewed our processes so that this type of service does not happen
again. In an effort to minimize the inconvenience and the trouble of trying to
get an answer to your original question or any developer question please
email me at mario dot ramon at sun dot com.
Best Regards,
Mario
