Reluctantly - moving to another JSF IDE
Hi,
After nearly 8 months of using JSC, I have decided to bite the bullet and move to another JSF IDE. My company has a JSC system in place and working fine, but overall the performance of the IDE is not good enough.
Having recently used 2 other IDE's from IBM and Oracle, whilst not as functionaly GUI rich, they offer more in terms of IDE responsiveness, refactoring and local app server memory size.
I would have thought by this point, the IDE would have been sorted out by now. Right clicking and waiting 30 secs for something to happen is not acceptable in this day and age.
I appreciate what the JSC team have done over the last 2 years in terms of JSF for the masses, but, lets be honest, and I don't think I am alone here, it is so frustrating trying to develop in it!!!
Can anybody in the JSC team let me know if there any updates coming out soon, or will it be bundled with Netbeans? I have 3 fairly big projects coming up and once I move to another tool, I will never use JSC again.
Regards,
LOTI
# 1
My understanding is that studio creator will be released as a plugin module for Netbeans 5.5 this fall.
As far as increasing performance, I've found the following advice on these forums:
1. Increase RAM to 2 Gigs
2. Try disabling your antivirus and see if it increases performance
3. Run creator on a Macbook or Linux
I run creator on Ubuntu, 2.5 GHz CPU, 1 Gig Ram and it works great.
Good luck!
Dean
# 2
Hi All,
I am having the same issues.
I posted this here on the same topic http://swforum.sun.com/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=101783&tstart=75.
I think the IDE is great but the timelag/responsiveness is very frustrating. I would rather buy the sofware if it meant this could be sorted out.
Good luck
Jim
# 3
Please note that Creator team is aware of the performance and memory problem. So far the focus was towards providing a feature rich IDE. Now the focus has been changed to provide a better performing IDE for the future release.- Winston http://blogs.sun.com/winston
# 4
I have always wondered why java IDEs lack the RAD tools they have in VisualStudio.Net where you can drag and drop rich components for web applications, such as a web calendar component or database table with pagination and sorting.
I was pleasantly surprised when I installed and played with Studio creator. I think it still lags in performance and features, compared to VS.Net, but it抯 getting there. I run it on IBM ThinkPad T41, with 1.5 GB RAM and it works just fine. I am also running MS SQL server 2005 express on the same box.
I have tried IBM Rational Web Developer, Eclipse 3.x (with all kinds of plug ins), and Java Studio. I think Java Studio is the best, but not as good as VS.NET -- keep in mind there is a free version of VS.NET called Visual Web Developer Express. I would strongly recommend Java Studio team to play with it to learn and copy some of its features, such as lots of rich web components, good performance, and great css/style editing features. As an example, Sun Studio has only a few design themes, but VS.NET has dozens of themes and styles for tables, look and feel, etc.
Java world is ahead of Microsoft on the back-end/server side, but they are clearly behind when it comes to user interfaces. I really wish they can catch up quickly, before JSF becomes another cold fusion. I think part of it is that Microsoft, due to its more than $40 billion cash reserves, can afford to have hundreds of developers working on VS.Net. Where as, it sounds to me, there are 10-15 developers on Sun Studio Team. Just look at tons of documentation, tutorials, examples, sample projects on MSDN related to VS.NET and compare to that on Studio Creator web site.
Nonetheless, I am still impressed with Studio Creator, and I really wish they have 3.0 sooner rather than later. This is the best IDE for java based web apps. Creator team seems very creative and agile. They just need to quickly close the gap with VS.NET by providing additional components (i.e. vertical and horizontal JSF menus/dropdowns), about a dozen more themes, ability to copy and customize themes visually, additional styles (like in VS, you can quickly change a table style from default to one of the dozens, such as professional, contemporary, etc), more and comprehensive examples, tutorial, books, etc. and even a possible certification in Studio Creator/JSF. How about Sun Certified JSF Developer and Sun Certified developer for Studio Creator?
Message was edited by:
Sabir
Sabir at 2007-7-6 22:30:28 >
# 5
On the last part of your well thought out posting, Sun is certainly interested in offering formal in-depth training, see:
http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/learning/training/index. html
Whether you will get a shiny new Microsoft-style certificate, well, I'm sure that can be arranged ;-)
# 6
How about having an on-line and self-paced version of that course? Also, it would be very helpful to have the instructor-led course in major cities like NYC, DC, Boston, Atlanta, Dallas, Chicago, SF, etc. If there is a certification, that is going to be a big boost. IBM has certifications for its IDEs and associated tools, why can't Sun follow - even though I think Sun's products are much better, but they are not as good in marketing as Microsoft and IBM are.
Sabir at 2007-7-6 22:30:28 >
# 7
Try to add tabs in Visual Studio to an ASP page. You can't. They don't exist.I've also worked with Visual Studio and it left me longing to work in creator where component events are handled appropriately and there is a plethora of free components available.
# 8
I totally agree that SUN JSC ver 2 update 1 is not production quality. We have been using it for the past 5 months and trust me we had lot of problems. I am taking the slack every day for suggesting this tool to the team.
I feel both JSF and SUN JSC are half baked concepts especially when you compare with .NET and Visual Studio.
The problem with SUN I GUESS is it has n't got the resoources to invest in a poweful IDE and at the same time it has killed the industry(Borland etc) by giving away half baked JSC free; meaning a lot of us do not mind paying for a better quality tool. All this is working to the advantage of SUN, IBM and Oracle. Now how different are these from Microsoft? In the end I guess IBM and Oracle will walk away happy.
Has the Open Source been hijacked by IBM and Oracle and is not foolish for SUN to think it will benefit something out of this?]
# 9
The best solution for JSF and Java would be for Sun to start creating plugins for Eclipse.
# 10
Hi All,
Part of my performance lag issues were due to my test app using a remote datasource which had limited server memory I upped this to 512Mb and my testing runs a lot faster.
I think the biggest problem for me using SC2 is not being able to replicate the production environment as my test environment ie I would like to use Tomcat 5.5 locally. I am having big problems now on an application that I thought was finished which works on the bundled server but has various problems accessing datasources in Tomcat...
I would be happy to pay for SC2 if I could choose my local Test environment and have more freedom to edit the look and feel of the tables fonts etc.
Regards and more power to the C2 teams respective elbows.
Jim
# 11
I am using JSC in my Windows computer with 2.5 GB memory. I am very much satisfied with its performance and features.
People worrying about the performance issue sould simply increase the memory size, it will then work fine.
The JSF concept is a milestone in Internet applications development, and implementing that in a visual environment as in JSC is actually a great gift to developers.
On the other hand, Visualstudio.net is a confusing source, unnecessarily packed with a lot of languages... VB, C#, J#, C++, Form development language... and so on....What the hell is that?
But with JSC use one language to do everything!! JSC is a smat tool for smart people.
Thanks.
# 12
> The best solution for JSF and Java would be for Sun
> to start creating plugins for Eclipse.
I disagree with you on that. If you use Eclipse along with all the plug-ins and use Studio Creator, you will realize Creator has a much better user interface and look at feel. It provides a much stronger base than Eclipse - at least in terms of user interface. Eclipse was originally developed by IBM and donated to open source community. As usual, anything that IBM develops has the user experience as an after thought.
I would rather have IBM and all the others writing plug-ins for Studio Creator - which is just a wishful thinking and we know its not going to happen. I am an IBM Certified developer for some of their products and my company is an IBM business partner. But my problem with IBM is that they make the worst user interfaces in the world. Just look at Lotus Notes and compare it with Outlook. We all know Notes has lots of features and you can write your own applications and web-enable them too, but the user interface - the look and feel and user experience, is just horrible. Same with most of the IBM products, based on Rational or Web Sphere or Lotus, they have the most complex user interfaces. They need a lot more training and not many books or the training providers available. These are good products when you need to develop complex financial system for millions of dollars, but if you want to write a small/medium scale web-enabled data-driven system with a small team, then Studio Creator like products are the best.
Again, Studio Creator has long way to go to catch up with VS.NET, but they are getting there. Now Microsoft is giving away free version of VS.Net, because of this competition.
I would encourage Sun to put more resources on this product. It appears to me that they are sort of resource constrained. They should have 3.0 by now.
On a side note, I think Sun should have bought Netscape instead of having it killed by AOL. That would have been a nice complement along with Star Office and Solaris OS. Oops we are getting side tracked, another discussion for another time.
Message was edited by:
Sabir
Sabir at 2007-7-6 22:30:28 >
# 13
Guys its probably time u upgraded from your 128KB RAM Commodore 128 and bought a real computer. What do you want Sun to give you a free computer as well? My 3 yr. old P4 3.0GHZ 1GB RAM Windows box runs Creator fine. Sure there's a little bit of lag here and there but it beats hand coding html tags, learning JavaScript, recompiling a JSP fifty thousand times to get the absolute layout perfect, dealing with browser stylesheet inconsistencies, etc. etc. by a factor of 1000.
What I'm currently doing is building my web interface in Creator, and then importing that project into Netbeans to build the data tier in EJB. The sooner they integrate Creator with Netbeans, the sooner this becomes 'production' capable, IMO
# 14
The best way forward from here is to change JSC licensing model to apache license.What do you think?
# 16
We are building a complex JSF based application using Java Studio Creator and JBoss app server/Microsoft SQL Server.
Studio Creator runs fine with 1 GB Ram.
We are absolutely happy with the quality and out-of-box experience it offers.
We are even willing to pay for it. It's a quality product.
I don't know why people are not giving time to Sun to settle things down.
They said the same thing about NetBeans few months back.
Now look what happened with NetBeans 5.0 and 5.5?
NetBeans beats Eclipse in almost every area except the editor.
I wouldn't have tried Studio Creator if it was based on eclipse.
I know how painful it is to use Eclipse with all it's plugins.
I love Studio Creator because it's based on NetBeans.
I think once it is based on NetBeans 5.0, it will be a killer product indeed.
For people who complain about Studio Creator, follow these steps:
1. Ensure you have atleast 1 GB Ram.
2. Try to export your project as a war file to deploy it to tomcat or other app servers.
I strongly recommend that Studio Creator should not be released under Apache License.
If Sun starts giving away like that then people will ask a Computer, keyboard, mouse etc etc under Apache License.
Let Sun also earn something for all the excellent work they do for our cause.
Can anyone point at any other Java IDE which offers the same functionality of Studio Creator at improved performance?
Studio Creator is worth paying.
Give time to their development team to settle things down.
# 17
good to see this post finally generating some heated discussion...
to those people who say throw more memory, it just doesn't work. If I had 20gig of ram, right clicking a control would still take too long.
personally, SUN have had 2 years to try and get this right and it still isn't there. i agree its a massive step forward in terms of java web development, but its not good enough. all great on the compoenents, page navigation, etc, but the ide performance is abysmal.
i am currently looking at IBM RAD and Oracle JDeveloper and still have not made up my mind whether to leave JSC yet. For all its failings, it is still easy to put an app together, albeit via 20 local server restarts a day.
change a session variable you need to bind to ? need to restart ide. not good enough.
with all the Ajax controls coming along and their ability to integrate with JSC, I do hope version 3 is a big improvement.
Regards,
LOTI
# 18
This is one the possible ways: http://www.webratio.comHi and good test!!
# 19
I don't think its the right approach at this point. I think opening the source code of Java and/or JSC is going to help Microsoft as its developers will learn and copy the best features of it, while keeping the best of VS.Net and C# features. I am in favour of open source when there is a level playing field, but here Microsoft will have full access to your source code to learn from it, whereas you have no access to their source code. We all know they are very good at copying and marketing.
To give you an analogy, US has free trade agreements with many countries. It was suppose to help US but it ended up hurting them because there is no level playing field. US competitors do not follow the same strict labor standards. As a result, they have a ballooning trade deficit. I have a same concern with opening the source code for Java and JSC. It sounds like a good idea, but if you do cost-benefit analysis, in my judgment, it will provide more benefits to Microsoft. It is equivalent of Sun developers doing all this hard work for years just for Microsoft to copy/learn/incorporate it in its products for free.
> The best way forward from here is to change JSC
> licensing model to apache license.
> What do you think?
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:43 >
# 20
Sabir,You made some great points. Maybe the GPL would be a better choice because licensing it under the GPL would allow anyone to use it, including Microsoft,, but any changes made to the source would need to be shared with the public. That way we would all benefit.
# 21
Thanks for your reply. I respectfully disagree though. I think there is flaw in this logic about GPL. Microsoft engineers could learn a lot from Java or Creator source code, and they can use that code to incorporate in VS.NET or C#. You have to share the code when you are using it in the same product. They don't have to "literally" copy the code, but learn ideas from it and implement their version of it. For example, instead of writing a "Tab" component in VS.NET from scratch, they can learn how Sun did it, and use that as starting point to write the code and possibly make it even better. Furthermore, since we have no access to their source code, how would we know that they have used ours? Open source Java and/or Creator will help Microsoft a lot to expedite the short comings of there products.
Another example: When I have to write a web app, I go out and look at the HTML source of other similar sites to find out how they did it. I don't necessarily copy it as-is, but use it to learn or to get ideas or to use as a starting point for my projects.We all do that, right, because we have access to HTML source. Similarly Microsoft or even IBM will benefit a lot from the source code.
SUN team, do not make that mistake. You are going to give away your intellectual property for other to copy, learn, improve and then to compete against you.
You would think Microsoft is not watching Creator when they have a highly visible and market leading VS.NET. But they are paying attention. As soon as Creator was released, they came up with a free version of VS.NET called Visual Web Developer (to compete with Creator and other JSF based free tools). Similarly, as soon as IBM donated Cloudscape as Derby, Microsoft released a free version of SQL, called SQL 2005 Express, which is free to use and redistrbute. They are the smartest people out there, in terms of marketing, copying ideas, business "saviness" and will eat you alive if you let them.
> Sabir,
>
> You made some great points.
>
> Maybe the GPL would be a better choice because
> licensing it under the GPL would allow anyone to use
> it, including Microsoft,, but any changes made to the
> source would need to be shared with the public. That
> way we would all benefit.
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:43 >
# 22
Well, the Java source code is already freely available for anyone to look at and Studio Creator will be open sourced this fall and incorporated into Netbeans.
I disagree with your arguments. If Microsoft is going to "learn from Sun code", they've already done it. Look at C#.
It's possible to track down if companies are using GPL'd code by looking at their binaries. I don't know how to do it and don't care to learn how, but there are people out there that look for these things. Do a google search for "GPL violations" and you'll find more information.
Thanks!
# 23
JSF and Creator got most the ideas from ASP.NET forms, where you can drag and drop the components in IDE and IDE creates all the code in two forms:
1) Tags embedded in HTML code, i.e <asp:Table> tag in a .aspx page, or <ui:Table> tag in a .jsp page
2) A "code behind" file based on the object oriented methodolgy which contains all the objects and associated events. i.e. .java file in case of Creator or .vb file in case of ASP/VS.NET.
So you can see they are strikingly similar in idea and vision. However, ASP/VS.NET has a lot more components than Creator. So lets say, if Microsoft today decides to open up its source code for ASP.NET, don't you think it will make it a lot easier for SUN Creator team or other 3rd party developers to copy those components into Creator, not literally copy but to use that code as a psuedo-code to write your own code? Similarly Creator 3.0 team can look at ASP.NET source code and get some insights, right? They are never going to release their code, why is SUN releasing its? I think it was a mistake to realease Java source code too. Its like Toyota publishing all the insights and know-how of Hybrid technology only to help its competitors to copy and make it better.
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:43 >
# 24
Visualstudio.net may have more components than JSC but they work only on IE better. But JSC components are platform independent. This is a very important point you must take into account.
Now I ask you a question:
vs.net or JSC, which is having more platform independent components?
The genuine answer is JSC !!
(Note: Read this news: http://arstechnica.com/journals/microsoft.ars/2006/7/24/4750
Microsfot is unable to create its website viewable using a non IE browser, at this condition, how can it create an IDE which can be used to create platform independent websites?)
# 25
> ASP/VS.NET has a lot more
> components than Creator.
I'm working on an ASP.NET 2.0 project right now. VS 2005 has 91 components.Creator has 98.
> I think it was a mistake to realease
> Java source code too. Its like Toyota publishing all
> the insights and know-how of Hybrid technology only
> to help its competitors to copy and make it better.
I guess that's the point of open sourcing something... "to make it better".
# 26
Thanks folks for your participation. Here are my closing remarks:
So now we are going to help Microsoft by opening this source code. They will blatantly copy it and make it better - just like what they did to Cold Fusion. For example, they will figure out why there components are not as much cross-platform as Creator's and how Creator achieved it. This will help ASP.NET more than it will help Creator. People who get 6 figures pay and are dedicated fulltime to ASP.NET will have more time and pressure to improve their product (than a bunch of hobbyist, who do it for fun -- not with SUN, but after being open-sourced). And when you give away your source code to them, they will use it to learn and improve their product, not yours. Also, keep in mind, IBM will benefit from it by learning and getting ideas from it and implementing in Rational IDE - which is lacking the quality JSF components that Creator has. I think IBM, Microsoft, BAE, etc. will be very happy to see the source code.
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:43 >
# 27
folks,
i didn't intend for this post to turn into the usual java v's microsoft tantrum. that little gem will go on for infinity. no end in sight for that one.
i want to summarise: 2 years into JSC and IDE performance is crap. Get the IDE sorted and up to Eclipse standard and we are laughing. Then half the posts of this forum will disappear.
LOTI.
# 28
I thought that was a fun discussion though.
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:43 >
# 29
> folks,
>
> i didn't intend for this post to turn into the usual
> java v's microsoft tantrum. that little gem will go
> on for infinity. no end in sight for that one.
>
> i want to summarise: 2 years into JSC and IDE
> performance is crap. Get the IDE sorted and up to
> Eclipse standard and we are laughing. Then half the
> posts of this forum will disappear.
>
> LOTI.
How can you compare Creator with Eclipse?
Eclipse is one of the slowest beasts on earth.
Can Eclipse match upto the power of NetBeans?
# 30
This discussion is not a comparision of Eclipse against NetBeans either?
All we are trying to say is even after 2 years in developemnt JSC is far away from being production quality tool. Let's spin it quatitaively to narrow the discussion scope:-
1) The components are basic(a big gripe) especially when you compare with the commercial components. Some of them do not integrate with JSC but we were not confident enough to buy the ones that are compatible(Galileo) as JSC itself was flaky
2)Same with Support...why we would we want to buy support packages from SUN when the tool itself is flaky
2) Visual IDE comes up with synchronization problems , buildimpl.xml
problems, a bit flaky but I can live with it
3) CVS is definitely unpredictable sometimes, it comes up with Indexoutof Bound or NullPointer exceptions
4)JSC is not a full fledged J2EE IDE and so would end up using two IDEs for most J2EE projects
To sum it up nobody is winning here and SUN is biggest loser.
SUN needs to come with a damage control strategy BEFORE Eclipse or others releases a cheap n cheerful tool.
I hope u take this feedback positively and constructively.
The lesson I need to learn is don't be carried away by brand names while incorporating new technologies/IDEs
HTH...Cheers
# 31
I like Creator a lot better than Eclipse and I have been using Eclipse since 2.x . Now I am about to give up Eclipse in favor of Creator, but I find these issues with Creator that I have already outlined earlier in this thread. I would like Creator to be as good for Java based cross-platform web apps as Visual Studio.Net is for Vb/C# based IE apps. See my earlier postings on this thread.
I really hope SUN comes up with Creator 3.0 sooner rather than later.
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:48 >
# 32
I don't think it will really make difference with a Sub-standard product with a Makeover-Cosmetics.Studio creator is based on Netbeans and won't integrate with Netbeans. Sounds Strange. Bad development philosophy. People at Sun never inter-operate themselves.
# 33
I heard somewhere on this forum that they are integrating it with NetBeans. I just feel that SUN doen't have enough resources, or has not allocated enough resources to Creator.
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:48 >
# 34
> I heard somewhere on this forum that they are
> integrating it with NetBeans. I just feel that SUN
> doen't have enough resources, or has not allocated
> enough resources to Creator.
Hmm, check this out: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/winston?entry=creator_pack_for_netbeans
# 35
Sun has to improve the RAD application quality.Sun creating an eclipse plugin is a long way. At least they could have created Netbeans Plugin.Just open source it.
# 36
Sabir, please don't get distracted too much or get exited about Studio. Studio can be used for prototype not in real development.
Look at their support. There are not updates to fix the problem they have in JSC. They dumped the JSC and started planning to integrate with Netbeans.
In a long run you will have a musical chair or Studio creator product line and none will be useful because they change everything they already supported.
SUN needs money, people and direction.
They can open source it so that someone may create plugins for Eclipse and Netbeans. Let them expose the source and developers can fix it.
# 37
I see some misleading information in your statements
There are not updates to fix the problem they have in JSC
Perhaps you are not aware of http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/downloads/hotfixes/index .html. Current work on the next update is underway in addition to work on the next major release of JSC.
My team already has a plan for the next release of JSC in addition to the add-on pack to NetBeans. I am very excited about the new features being added.
They can open source it so that someone may create plugins for Eclipse and Netbeans. Let them expose the source and developers can fix it.
Once again I think you misinfomed or unaware of what is going on: http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/winston?entry=creator_to_be_open_sourced
# 38
.........in addition to work on the next major release of JSC. When is the next mayor release is expected? I aware Sun's policy is not releasing the dates, but you may tell which year , which quarter?Thank you.
# 39
I think between Jetson and spattabiraman, the truth is in the middle. Yes, there are updates, but not as many and/or not as fast as would like to see. Check out Visual Studio's updates, there are more than a dozen of them every week. Again, it comes down to resources available or allocated. I think Creator team is doing a great job within its resources, I just wish that SUN will assign more resources to this product - which has a great potential to be the leading IDE, at least for web apps.
> I see some misleading information in your statements
>
>
> There are not updates to fix the problem they have in
> JSC
>
> Perhaps you are not aware of
> http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator
> /downloads/hotfixes/index.html. Current work on the
> next update is underway in addition to work on the
> next major release of JSC.
>
> My team already has a plan for the next release of
> JSC in addition to the add-on pack to NetBeans. I am
> very excited about the new features being added.
>
> They can open source it so that someone may create
> plugins for Eclipse and Netbeans. Let them expose the
> source and developers can fix it.
>
> Once again I think you misinfomed or unaware of what
> is going on:
> http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/winston?entry=creator
> _to_be_open_sourced
Sabira at 2007-7-21 15:14:48 >
# 40
Jetson,
Usability issue is still there in JSC and it is killing developers. You might have a bug-fix schedule but No key fixes are coming out via the update center update.
We don't need new features, at least give the best in the current feature list. I am not favouring specific IDEs because in reality we use multiple IDEs during development. Each is good in giving certain helpful features.
As advertised it should really speed up application development. If a page takes(say) 3 minutes to open 1 minute to re-render after a change and few trial and error deployment. Tell me if it is a Rapid App Development (or) Slow App Development.
Developers work under pressure. They want fast, smart and trustworthy products.
Sun deed to dump few functionality and give the best of what it has. Increase usability. I know it is easy for me to say.
All resource that matters.
# 41
Please see my replies to the thread SOS - Help on Creator performance http://forum.sun.com/jive/thread.jspa?messageID=354922- Winston http://blogs.sun.com/roller/page/winston?catname=Creator
# 42
winston,
It doesn't matter whether it is 2 pages or 200 pages the performance is still sub-standard.
Like many others in this post, I have invetsed significant time and effort to learn Creator. I work in a large organisation and I am trying to sell this a corporate IDE development tool.
I am from the VB/ASP background that Creator is aimed at. (12 years)The event driven model, drag and drop, navigation etc, have been excellently incoroporated.
But if the performance is crap and you end up on valium trying to qrite a project in it. it will sink quicker than titanic.
And please, nobody reply with increase memory, check config settings, etc. I am VERY, VERY bored with those responses. We all know where the problem lies.
Regards,
LOTI
# 43
LOTI,
While I know people are experiencing some problems in the IDE, I think that Creator is a bloody good tool and given its relative immaturity is a pretty spectactular effort for something that's only in Version 2.
As a developer in Visual Basic and Visual Studio from way back in the VB3 years (yep, that's 15 years for all you youngsters) I remember how many versions (5) VB went through to become a really usable product. VB3 was plagued with problems, DLL hell issues, components that would not work, compiled EXE's that would not run.... VB4 improved a lot but required VB5 pretty hot on its heels to really make a jump in performance and capabilities. While the base performance of the VB3 ide was faster than Creator 2, what's the use of performance if the end result wasn't reliable? Creator's output seems to be pretty solid so far, and I am more concerned with that than some delays in the IDE.
Before you abandon or dismiss JSC, consider that in one tool, Sun has managed to make RAD for JSP and Faces available to the Java masses, while giving VB/Visual Studio developers a straight line pathway into java technologies through a similar event driven programming model. While there are some issues, the product will only get better with input from the user community, and I can say from personal experience that Sun does listen to the users and take on board suggestions and bug reports.
While I appreciate that you may find the performance issues frustrating when working on real production projects, Creator is worth persevering with. The Creator IDE sometimes has problems, but a lot of these problems seem to occur running Creator under Windows.
Because of some of the performance problems, we have looked at the Mac and Linux, and having tested the IDE in these environments, I believe that a lot of the performance issues seem to be Windows related rather than specifically IDE related. On the Mac and Linux, we can get into a project really quickly - start times are quick and the IDE seems to be a lot more responsive - on Windows we sometimes wait for things to happen, but sometimes the performance is fine. So, for our next project, we are considering whether we can move to Macs for development, or running a linux virtual machine on our development boxes to run the IDE. Don't get me wrong, I am a Windows based developer, and won't abandon my PC without a fight, but I am just raising the fact that there are alternatives for us with Creator.
The long and the short of it is that although there are some performance issues, and as always, some teething problems, I think Sun has got a definite development strategy for this product, and they are putting in work to improve the IDE. The benefits/RAD capabilities that it gives us more often than not make up for some of the minor frustrations.
I don't think the issues warrant abandoning creator at this point, and I am looking forward to seeing what the V3 release brings.
# 44
LOTI,I realize you are "bored" with people trying to help you, but if the performance issues are not at least partially related to your config/settings then how do you explain why Creator works fine for many people? Magic maybe?
jsra at 2007-7-21 15:14:48 >
# 45
I am gald this post is still generating some heated debate. Some people have a lot to say..
to the previous two posts
1) I understand what a great job SUN have done with JSC and the implications it has for java web development. I still have not abandoned it yet, as I have invested too much time and effort.
2) As for being "bored", and working for many people: are these people writing systems that have potentially one thousand people in a building going to use it? are these people part of a large global organisation , or as I suspect most people simply playing around with the tool?
I am trying to convert a lot of expereinced java developers who are very sceptical of the "VB" for java as they call it. So if the IDE is crap, they will just laugh even more.
Regards,
LOTI
# 46
> Sabir, please don't get distracted too much or get
> exited about Studio. Studio can be used for prototype
> not in real development.
> Look at their support. There are not updates to fix
> the problem they have in JSC. They dumped the JSC and
> started planning to integrate with Netbeans.
> In a long run you will have a musical chair or Studio
> creator product line and none will be useful because
> they change everything they already supported.
>
> SUN needs money, people and direction.
>
> They can open source it so that someone may create
> plugins for Eclipse and Netbeans. Let them expose the
> source and developers can fix it.
It is you who are misleading this forum's discussion.
If you don't like creator and like eclipse, go live with that evil beast.
Don't come here and spoil the minds of other developers who are willing to adapt creator.
# 47
> I don't think it will really make difference with a
> Sub-standard product with a Makeover-Cosmetics.
> Studio creator is based on Netbeans and won't
> integrate with Netbeans. Sounds Strange. Bad
> development philosophy. People at Sun never
> inter-operate themselves.
What do you mean by "won't integrate with Netbeans"?
do you want to open the visual designer in NetBeans?
MyEclipse, IBM WSAD are all based on Eclipse.
Can you open a IBM WSAD visual project and work in Eclipse?
Mind your words, before you post anything.
I wonder you ever tried Studio Creator or NetBeans 5.0 or NetBeans 5.5
# 48
You asked for it, you got it...the Java Studio Creator team has provided significant design-time performance with this latest hot fix. Connect to the Update Center http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/downloads/updates/index. html and get it today!
Note: This hot fix requires Sun Java Studio Creator 2 Update 1. If you need to upgrade from Java Studio Creator 2, see the Downloads page http://developers.sun.com/prodtech/javatools/jscreator/downloads/index.jsp.
Comments? A new forum thread has been started to consolidate discussion about the hotfix and issues related to IDE performance. Come on over to Get Improved Performance with Hot Fix 2 at http://swforum.sun.com/jive/thread.jspa?threadID=105441 and let us know what you think.
