i always see only such stupid applets coded by a student within a few days, that is not a really game. java has such rich possibilities like hardware acceleration 3d abilities and the siound api - but isn't there a really serious game project yet?
almost all shockwave/flash games i saw were better than most of the java games i saw yet.
java has such a big potential! why don't somebody use it?
I think this is because there are very limited professional opportunities for Java game developers... Most of those who write games in Java fall into two categories... 1) Ppl like Abuse, who really know what they're doing but are writing for cell phones and the like, so they won't write what you're calling a "serious game", and 2) ppl like me who write games to learn the language... I started off with a strategy based football game (so that I didn't have to worry about things like frame rate when I was first starting out) and that effort lasted about 6 months... I eventually just got bored with it and moved on to my 2D project. After 6 weeks or so, I'm still having fun with that, so I'll probably keep working on that for awhile.
The bottom line is, I still don't think I know enough to write a serious 3D game. And I'm guessing (from what I've seen on this forum)that the average Java game developer either doesn't, or doesn't want to spend the (spare) time to create one.
I'm sure you'll see more serious Java games in the future. Games like that take a while to develop, and not many companies have ventured into trying to use Java for their games. The assumption by most people is that Java is simply not fast enough. Remember, it hasn't been that long since Java gave capabalities for writing games. C++ is going to dominate games for many years to come, but I really think Java will make it's way into the gaming scene too. Not many people know this, but look at the game IL-2 Sturmovik. It's written 90% in Java and I believe it's the most successful Java game thus far. It's been on the top 10 gaming list for a while now, and still is. Take a look for yourself :)
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/top10/0,11997,6013054,00.html
hm IL-2 Sturmovik i don't believe that is java :-)
and this tailgunner is well known - means that there are really no good games in java yet. but i didn't mainly mean commercial games - i meant only games that are playable, have good graphic (and it don't have to be 3D!) or are good in any other way - there is not such thing yet.
i don't know understand why!!!! i know soo many shockwave games - nearly all of them are better than all java games i know yet!! all java game i've seen yet are somewhat stupid and crappy! WHY?
Yes, it is java. Check it out:
http://www.rolemaker.dk/articles/evaljava/errata.htm
"Commercial games using Java (p. 81)
Since the report was released I have found more games that use Java:
IL-2 Sturmovik (2001) by Maddox Games: Uses dirty Java by mixing Java with C++, such that logic and part of the game engine is in Java but all the graphics are in C++. This game has gotten very good reviews.
Games currently in development using Java that I know of are Star Wars Galaxies (uses Java for scripting) and Law and Order (100% Java).
After the report was published I was contacted by Scott D. Williams who was lead engineer at Red Storm Entertainment on ruthless.com and Shadow Watch and who also worked on Politika. He supplied me with some extra information about those games. He wanted to make it clear that these games was very low budget and was targeted at low-end PCs so they should not be compared directly with top titles released at that time. (which is why it is not surprising they got bad reviews).
Shadow Watch (2000)
Dirty Java.
DirectX via JNI for 2D graphics & sound.
Java 1.1.8 embedded JVM (did not use a stand-alone JVM).
MS Windows only.
Designed for Pentium 133 / 32 MB RAM.
Single player.
Essentially bug-free (no patches was necessary).
Demo available.
ruthless.com (1998)
Dirty Java
DirectX via JNI for 2D graphics & sound.
Java 1.1.x. Was statically compiled to an executable file with SuperCede by Instantiations.
MS Windows only.
Designed for Pentium 120 / 16 MB RAM.
Multiplayer.
One minor patch (was available before game hit shelves).
Demo available.
Tom Clancy's Politika (1997)
Was the first commercial Java game ever.
Java 1.0.2 (Nearly pure Java. Just a little JNI help with the intro video).
MS Windows and MacOS.
Multiplayer.
Designed for Pentium 100 / 16 MB RAM; PowerPC 601/603.
One minor patch.
Also developed lobby server w/user accounts, rankings, profiles, etc. in Java 1.1 using JDBC & Sybase SQL back end."
> i don't know understand why!!!! i know soo many
> shockwave games - nearly all of them are better than
> all java games i know yet!! all java game i've seen
> yet are somewhat stupid and crappy! WHY?
The shockwave development kit AND plugin were MADE to be 3D. The dev kit lets you draw out the polygons and such. Kind of like Swift3D. The java plugin and dev kit was made to be virtually ANYTHING. So it takes a little extra effort on the programmer's side. Another thing is.. since the shockwave games are relatively easy to create, it doesn't take a whole team of programmers to do a good job. Java on the other hand, will need more than one programmer to make a serious game. Unless, of course, there's a single programmer who has the time and is willing to work on the game 24/7.
> > i don't know understand why!!!! i know soo many
> > shockwave games - nearly all of them are better
> than
> > all java games i know yet!! all java game i've seen
> > yet are somewhat stupid and crappy! WHY?
For some reason unexperienced people who get up some day, have a cup of coffee and think: hey, let's program a game in a week. Then they start looking on the internet and think there will be some wizard that will let you create a good game in no time. And guess what, there comes Flash to the resque. They have heard of Java, but are not willing to learn it (in that time they have allready made tetris in Flash).
The second problem is that professional programmers (not me) tend to prefer C(++), they think Java is for babies. So most games in Java will be created by students who get sick of having to write stupid Fibonacci or Towers of Hanoi **** for their school projects. I'm one of those stupid students. I've started of by making some crappy tetris game no one wants to play and now I made a bomberman clone (2D) in Java, which is less crappy.
jpw
hm...
i think the problem is flash is for graphicians and programmers and java is for programmers only. that makes a big differences and thats why flash games are almost alwayways better than java games.
the programmer
he knows how to implement the complexest algorithm and how to make the impossibiblest things. but: his problem is that he has no feeling for what makes a good game. there must be somebody to tell him what exactly has to be done and how the game at the end should be like.
the graphician
he knows exactly what a game must be like and how it must feel so that the game will be funny. he has a precise picture in his/her head what has to be made. he has the ability to create the ambience, the feeling of the game. but he has one problem: he cannot program.
thats my opinion and i feel that it's not only my opinion it is the fact!!!
The problem with your explanation is that your ignore the reality of 3d graphics in games entirely..
Usually tis the programmers vision of new graphics/game engine that drives new quality game sboth in non java and java programming environments..
Fro example on the non java side
Marathon-Bungie
First of many games incorporating 2.5-3d approach in first person shoot up game. New interactions of player with envrionment made it cool to play.
Remember the tools to make the game? although graphical in nature it was the programming innovations in 2.5 and 3d transformatiosn that drove the game not grphical people driving it!
Seriously want to design new games ..loook at all the 3d transformations that programmers have done before, now design a new one that alows more player interactivity with environment..then code and watch games sales coem roling in!
yes, yes theoretical..new technologies..3d engines bla bla..
see the facts. there is no good java game. show me a java game which makes fun, has good graohics or is good is any other way.
the only good games i see in the internet are mostly flash games.
BTW: i didn't meant to say nobody needs programmers nor did i say nobody needs 3D engines. i was only talking about games. what is a 3D engine good for if nobody makes a game with it?
show me a good java game to proof your claims!
> read up and play "tailgunner." And why did you make
> this thread just to say there are no good Java games
> even though we've proven you wrong?
yes yes i know tailgunner and i played tailgunner. very simple graphics but maybe one can call it a good game but no good graphics.
i see...i was right.
http://www.javagaming.org/
well it's being redone at the moment. Used to have links to a bunch of games, some rather nice.
The forums are still there.
Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game (MMORPG) in 3D etc (like for example Everquest):
http://www.cosm-game.com/
Here's an example where Java would have been nice: I've been involved in a 3d engine project (c++) for some time, and the biggest problems of that project were problems that you just don't have in Java: Memory management (the worst problem by far!), the bad windows DLL concept (and lots of other platform-specific issues), ... Admitted, it works and is portable, but with Java you are going to save a lot of pain.
In addition, all the platform-specific APIs had to be hidden under a layer of abstraction (for example, software rendering, OpenGL and DirectX for graphics, DirectSound, WaveOut, open sound system etc. for sound). In Java, you get input, sound, networking and some others for free. You might argue about graphics (Java3D or GL4Java or whatever), but at least the problem is more simple with Java.
The only thing I'm not sure about is whether the current JVM's memory management is fast enough to handle all those objects that are created during the 3d calculations.
Since when were flash games serious? Usually they're cartoony, lame kiddy games. They just look more visually appealing than some applet a student carved out in a day. You're not looking in the right place. It's not hard to create nice graphics and cool effects with Flash. Most Java programmers on the other hand aren't very artistic, and even if they were, g.drawLine(0,0,100,100); etc isn't going to look very nice... they would be forced to create their own images which most don't have a clue what they're doing. I mean, look at the tetris game you made. With 4kb you created something that looks better than 95% of tetris clones out there. The potential is there, it just takes little more effort on the programmers side.
And yes, IL-2 Sturmovik is created in Java using OpenGL. That's the best example I can think of. If you still need convincing, I'll show you plenty more examples.
> Since when were flash games serious?
ok maybe not serious but they make fun. thats what a good game must be.
> Most Java programmers on the other hand
> aren't very artistic, and even if they were,
> g.drawLine(0,0,100,100); etc isn't going to look very
> nice... they would be forced to create their own
> images which most don't have a clue what they're
> doing.
exactly my words :-)
> I mean, look at the tetris game you made. With
> 4kb you created something that looks better than 95%
> of tetris clones out there. The potential is there, it
> just takes little more effort on the programmers
> side.
oh thank you :-))
> And yes, IL-2 Sturmovik is created in Java using
> OpenGL. That's the best example I can think of. If you
> still need convincing, I'll show you plenty more
> examples.
oh yes pleeeaaaase mooore examples... :-)
> are u talking about there being no real game like
> command & conquer r alert 2, starcraft, 3d nhl games,
> and stuff? Maybe some of you should get together with
> all you super game skills and make one. Not me though
> my best is:
> http://www.geocities.com/jvp02/breakout.html
There are a few commercial quality java games though...
> are u talking about there being no real game like
> command & conquer r alert 2, starcraft, 3d nhl games,
> and stuff? Maybe some of you should get together with
> all you super game skills and make one. Not me though
> my best is:
> http://www.geocities.com/jvp02/breakout.html
Question, are you usign g.drawString()? If so, this seriously slows down performance.
0. By "serious game", I take it you mean something like "Thermonuclear war"? (-;
1. I've never seen a good Flash game. There are some good JavaScript games I've played.
2. The company I work for has one commercial Java game, and we're working on another. See http://www.historicalengineering.com
> Since the report was released I have found more games
> that use Java:
>
> IL-2 Sturmovik (2001) by Maddox Games: Uses dirty
> Java by mixing Java with C++, such that logic and part
> of the game engine is in Java but all the graphics are
> in C++. This game has gotten very good reviews.
Does anyone know what graphic engines are used in games? Are they somehow available or are they company secrets. I write 3D applications using Java 3D (not games but anyway). I sometimes suspect I would be better off using a game engine instead.
