Who are these people?
Good day developers,
Has anyone noticed that the quality of the questions in this forum have been degrading over time? I just can't believe some posts that come through here. For example, I can't even count on both hands how many times I've seen this one, "I need a JSP that shows 10 records per page, then the user clicks next and it shows 10 more, how to do?" Uhm, you hire a web developer for $85/hr.? It's like going to a Ford forum and asking, "I want a vehicle with 4 wheels and an engine, how to do?" Uhm, go to the dealership and buy one?
It's like these people just decide that they need to make a JSP application because some one told them they're really cool, so they go to the JDC and try to get some one else to do their entire project. They don't invest any time in studying the various technologies required to put it all together, they just want some one else to do it.
Now don't get me wrong, I know there are lots of great posts and very experienced and knowledgable developers in these forums, and that's why I come here. And I whole-heartedly encourage all new Java developers to study and learn these technologies, and avidly use the discussion forums. I just ask that they think about their questions before they post them. Read through the tutorials and API docs a little bit first. If you need a JSP application that displays a list of browsable records, then you're probably going to need to know JDBC, and JavaBeans will help out, and definitely JSP, so check out the tutorials.
Anyway, sorry to take up this thread with a non-technical "question." I just wanted to get an idea of how other people feel about this.
And to encourage people to read this and share their thoughts with us, I'll even put up 10 of my Duke Dollars!
Have a good day!
[1829 byte] By [
beattris] at [2007-9-26 4:06:29]
Hi Derek! I agree with you. Personally, I avoid trying to post source code when someone asks a "basic" question (the kind you've described) and point them to a source where they can get the necessary answers. The aim being to teach 'em how to fish, rather than to hand them a fish!
Alll said and done, I do post some source code every once in a while. However, those are snippets. I've seen folks post entire applets. I'm not a big proponent of that. As a group, if we start helping people find the information rather than hand them the answers on platter, that may lead to a reduced number of such posts.
As has been suggested in the "Discuss the JDC website" forum, a posting guidelines page would help, IMHO, of course.
Cheers!
amolk at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
<< I've seen folks post entire applets
And you know the most anoying thing. Huge sections of code are frequently posted by people from Sun Microsystems !. Atleast thats what they sign their messages with at the bottom.
I agree that as far as possible, only code that is enough in its content, quality, size etc, to motivate the original help seeker in ways such as further investigation etc., should be posted.
Another thing is: Some peoples' replies to a forum topics have nothing to do with the original post. Even on carefuly observation and re-reads, one cannot find anything useful at all. They only manage to contibute to traffic and resource consumption. So, just like the original poster of a question should be strongly encouraged to do thing like searchs, investigation etc., similarly, posters of replies should also read the original question/topic carefully.
This is kind of weird because I had put together a note early this morning about this same subject.
I did it right after reading this question from crazyfish
"how can I configure my javawebserver to use session?"
I haven't been on this forum very long and I didn't want to be rude so I didn't post my note.
Now that this box has been opened...
I like answering questions because it helps keep me sharp and helps others at the same time. If I feel like someone hasn't done the least bit of research, I don't feel inclined to try to answer their question.
I like your analogy about the car and the code.
Why don't these guys just say, "I don't have a clue how to code at all, but my boss thinks I do, so could you help me?"
I think the best thing that can happen is that no response is given to questions that are without merit.
The thing that annoys me about it, really is the fact that people can't be bothered to search for an answer. When I have had a problem with java I have managed to find someone else who had exactly the same problem by running a forum search in around 90% of cases. In another 5% I was able to find the same error on google and the remainder were truly out of the ordinary problems that I had to work out for myself.
In a lot of cases at the moment we are getting questions posted when exactly the same question has been answered in the last few hours and has to have been on the page that they were reading. I have noticed that the number of questions every day seems to have risen as well- I now have to read around 5 pages or so to catch up and there are only a couple there that I feel are worth answering because the answers are more than "Put the Tomcat jar files into your Classpath" or something that five other people have asked about and been replied to that day.
And don't even get me started on "would someone please e-mail me some source code for this to toolazyforhomework@lame.edu" type posts.
I enjoy answering questions and it does keep me thinking about areas of the language that I don't use so much. I have learned a lot from posts here and it also feels like a chance to give something back- if someone has a question that I can answer and they are having real problems with it is nice to be able to offer a bit of assistance.
The trouble is that there is no point creating an FAQ or anything because it won't get used any more than the forum search is. The flipside is that anyone who doesn't know how to use a search page is clearly too web-ignorant to be trying to build pages outside of geocities so I guess the whole "ignoring stupid questions" idea is the best one.
Hi,
I agree with most things you said.
the most stupid questions are like "I need something which do that, I have to use JSP can you post some code here or send it by e-mail to stupid@question.com"...
If people want to do something and they don't know how to do, they can ask help to show them a way and they will learn something new but asking code to copy/paste is a stupid way to solve a problem.
And what about topic subject like "PLEASE HELP!!" , they need help? we know! it a forum and when someone post a topic it's beacause help is needed so type the real subject of your problem is the subject field and I think answer will come quicklier than a stupid "PLEASE HELP!!" topic. (even if I look at them too ;o) )
gentyt at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
No one has mentioned about the people who put up Duke Dollars for help and when they get their answer they say thanks and don't award the dollars. It's not that I only help out if their are Duke Dollars available but like most people in this forum I like helping people out. A good portion of the time someone will give a much better answer than I gave but that person doesn't get the money.
Cheers
While I agree that there are some very stupid posts out there - you do have to have some patience with people who are just learning jsp.
I, for example, have posted I think 1 new question here - I did try and find stuff on it on the net - but anything I found didn't explain it enough to satisfy me - so I posted here.
I'm relatively new to JSP - having got a summer job with a web company that uses them. Now I'm really enjoying using them so I want to learn more - most of what I learn is by example, which is where the web comes into its own. However occasionally I will come across something I can't find/understand - so I may post here.
Obviously I will search for what I think might come up with the answer from previous posts.
But you must remember forums like these are for people to help each other.
Greebo at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
what if $Duke have to be offered,what if after replies have been posted and the originator did not assign,that the participants can allocate $s on the original poster's behalf!
mchan0 at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
with the same caveat that one cannot allocate to one's own posts, only to posts from other participants.if there are no good answers, 0s to everyone and the originator gets all the offered $duke back and retry with another question!
mchan0 at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
"The trouble is that there is no point creating an FAQ or anything because it won't get used any more than the forum search is."
Hi! If a "How To Use The Fora" page were to be created, every time someone posted an inappropriate question, folks here could respond uniformly with one question, "Have you read the How To page yet?" Enough of such responses and folks will get the idea.
Instead of responding to individual posts by saying "Have you searched the fora yet?", "Please post in the correct forum", "Please do not cross-post" etc., all of those guidelines could be collected in one place. When new folks register, they could be directed to that page.
After all is said and done, personal responsibility can never be legislated or mandated. So, the ones that cannot be bothered to follow proper protocol will still show up. However, those that do not know will have a place where they can read up on the do's and don'ts.
Just my $0.02!
Cheers!
amolk at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
>Has anyone noticed that the quality of the questions in this forum have been degrading over time?
Oh Absolutly. There have been so many times that I just wanted to post this answer:
*************************************
Step One: Look in the Java API. It's available for free here : http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.3/docs.html
Step Two: Look at the free Java Tutorial, It's available for free here : http://java.sun.com/docs/books/tutorial/index.html
Step Three: Do a search In these forums to find any one of the thousands of times your question has already been asked and answered.
Step Five: Read a book or take a class. If you have a Java programming job and don't have a clue about the language then that's YOUR fault.
Step Six: Stop asking me how to
A) Make Java into an *.exe file
B) To do your homework for you
C) To solve your client-server application problems complete with source code and documentation.
***********************************
It really is annoying at how little research people will do. I saw a question on the Swing forum asking "How do I set the text in a JButton to be right justified?" Gosh , let me think, How about we go right to the API documentation for a JButton and see if there's anything called "setHorizontalTextAlignment".
The First Place that you would think to go would be the API docs and yet he didn't even try that.
It just goes to prove my favorite quote about the internet in general:
"As the population of the Internet increases to meet that of the general population,
the level of intelligence on the internet will decrease to meet that of the general population."
Greg_B at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
I think that somethines when people make these post I try to get them a break and assume that there is a language barrier. I try to put something useful, even if it is just a question for them to ponder.
Although there are posts like this one (actual post):
Subject: "Program"
Body: "I need a program to write for me. Must be fast with multithreading. If not fast I dont want. Must be done by September 14, Thanks!!!"
I am not sure this guy is for real. Maybe it's some kind of AI experiment, where you try to make a program that posts that people think are made by a person.
As far as getting off the subject, I think that getting off the subject can be very interesting and enlightening as long as the original question gets answered. I know I am guility of it.
dubwai at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
P.S. same poster reply to onw post"You write for me the programs? Must be a Office suite!"This has got to be a joke.
dubwai at 2007-6-29 13:06:50 >
Hmmm - I am guilty of including code snippets for most of my answers - I find them easier to understand, as long as it's less than 20 lines or so.
In fact, I was even dumb enough to answer some guy's request for a mortgage-repayment-calculator. Today! It probably took the guy longer to post the question and read the answer than if he'd done it himself. It is hard, though, to separate out the lazy students from the guy who's desperately trying to learn a programming language on his own, although I agree that people posting questions like "Does String have a replace(String, String) method - I can't find one" should be strung up. As we all know - the javadocs are online (slaps forehead).
The standard of the questions is certainly going down, at least 50% seem to be "How to create .exe" and "How to run batch file from Java". Also it would help if people used the formatting when posting code, and rather than posting the source to their whole Applet, they just left in the bit where they thought the problem was and left out stuff like the import statements etc.
Also my own experience of asking questions (I've got a guru at work here, so I rarely have to) are that they don't get answered - and I try and make a point of keeping them curt and to the point! So I'm sure that there are those of us who tend not to bother asking questions here because we tend not to get the answers - the best posts now seem to be about people's suggestions for the language or attempts to understand it better. For instance there was a good one today about "lazy" variables - whatever they were supposed to be. Mind you - I didn't see any of the 10 $DD winging my way for my insight ;^)
> "You write for me the programs? Must be a Office suite!"
>
> This has got to be a joke.
BTW, dubwai, it sounds like a bit like a manager I used to work for.
Well...You must realize, some are picking up java on the side. I have picked up alot of java since i started programming last fall, ( first touched a compiler last Sept, in college ). As i can say, the forum has been help to me when i get stuck. Yes i agree that the 10000 posts "how do i create an exe", "HELP!!!", and the other "newbie" posts can be annoying. But have patience, --hopefully-- people will realize proper bbs edicate, it is ok to nicely tell someone it. Flaming doesn;t help the learning mind.
And yes i have seen "homework" or "programming" assignments on here, i have reconized a few, although they were in C++ in my classes last year.
Actually I remember a fantastic in-depth reply to someone's question a while back. The guy posted the statement "abstract classes cannot have concrete methods". How can any Java programmer of more than 2 hours experience not know this is a pile of the proverbials? How can anyone with such a deficit of knowledge post an answer?
I think Dirty Harry had it best when he said "A man's got to know his limitations".
> Well...You must realize, some are picking up java on the side.
Well, that is half of what I meant when talking about the person who is trying to learn but has no-one to ask. The ask bit is important, because questions about the API can be answered from other sources other than asking questions on these fora - either download it, buy a book or browse it. There are, of course, times when the best help is for someone to talk you through it or give an example and it is for these that the forums exist.
You are clearly not the type of person who this thread of discussion is aimed at and regular "answerers" here don't mind one bit (I hope) answering questions which have been thought about, researched and, finally, well-phrased.
Agree. If you want to learn something, you have to make the effort, it is the only way. I "blew" alot on java to learn it, time, money, commitment ( aren't they all the same thing? ). And all should be willing to do the same, IF they are really commited to learning the language. But it is easier to post "how to i replace characters in a string" than looking it up, (actually it would take longer). But that is the problem, people are not taught to look in the javadocs, so this seems to be the logical place to go...
> > Well...You must realize, some are picking up java on
> the side.
>
> Well, that is half of what I meant when talking about
> the person who is trying to learn but has no-one to
> ask. The ask bit is important, because
> questions about the API can be answered from other
> sources other than asking questions on these fora -
> either download it, buy a book or browse it. There
> are, of course, times when the best help is for
> someone to talk you through it or give an example and
> it is for these that the forums exist.
>
> You are clearly not the type of person who this thread
> of discussion is aimed at and regular "answerers" here
> don't mind one bit (I hope) answering questions which
> have been thought about, researched and, finally,
> well-phrased.
On the other end of the spectrum I find it humerous when people reply to emails offering free, complete java program source code...just leave your email address!
eg. "Forums - Complete java mail with attachments" has 1024 replies. I wonder how many respondants actually received this much anticipated program source code? my wild guess is 0 people got source code and 1024 were added to mailing lists!
Jamie
i am not sure about the "degrading" issue but i would agree that the overall quality is poor. there are news groups on the web that are far more proficient and helpful. maybe this is personally biase since i have the feeling that there don't seem to be people around that answer my questions.
have said that, don't want to bother with more criticism.
ah, and while we're at it: i don't think that something like a guideline will help much. either introduce moderation (which i doubt sun will do) or leave it as it is and look out for different places to go.
cu
robert
Just wanted to get my 2 cents in here as well.....
If you are fed up with the "stupid" questions from newbies and the like, you must be the ultimate JSP guru, and having said that, take a hike and start your own ******* forum.
I was under the impression that this forum was for people to come and ask question if they were having trouble figuring things out. I admit to asking a few "stupid" questions in my day, but MOST REASONABLE people have been quite polite until some ******* comes in and Flames everybody.
Get a life, and if you don't like the quality of the questions being asked, if they don't measure up to YOUR idea of what is warranted here.....the GET LOST.
HAVE A NICE DAY BUTTHEAD
Hi all,
There's lots of really good feedback on this thread and I've noted down what you have been saying and the suggestions that you have made. I'll do whatever I can to have your thoughts bought to the attention of the people who run the JDC forums. I really like the idea of a guidelines document as even if a poster doesn't read it before posting they can always be pointed to it in a reply.
If anyone would like to talk about this further with me you can do so via the "Discuss the JDC Web Site" forum.
One thing that I am involved in is the production of FAQ's for several of the JDC forums. If you have any suggestions for content for the JSP forum (or any other suggestions for this or any other forum FAQ's) please let me know via the "Discuss the JDC Web Site" forum.
Thanks
Amanda
Developer Technical Support
Sun Microsystems
BTW: I'm in the UK so I'll only be able to watch the discuss... forum during the UK's working hours.
Great!FAQs are a great source for all newbies and most all have the sense to read a FAQ before posting a question.Awsome idea!Thanks
avdic at 2007-7-1 10:23:08 >
Isn't that what this forum is all about. Helping each other out. None of us jumped into this business knowing it all! We should all be willing to help the younger developers tone their skills: Regardless of how much we think we know or how stupid we think the question is. None of us know it all. We should remember this in case we ourselves have questions which very well could fall into the same category. Food for thought
many of you probably already know this, but just in case, go to the newsgroups eg com.lang.java.programmers and others. there are many good contributors, especially Jon Skeet, Chris Smith, Patricia Shanahan and Roedy Green. Green has meticulously put together a Java Glossory, and most answers (beginner and expert) can be found there. This of course means one should search it.
how can anyone complaint if no one cares to volunteers as moderator of a forum. these issues will always arise. they do so on the newsgroups also with equally violent reactions at times.
the glossory is at:
http://mindprod.com/gloss.html
Reading though this thread, I find that the topic has degraded somewhat.
The orginal message asks: "Who are these people?"
These people are like me...VERY new and many need direction. Sources of information are out there, but the quality in the real world in limited.
However, I am very new Java and JSP. I was brought to develop a web application using ASP and update an existing MS Access database. One month into the project the company tells me that is MUST now be in Oracle and JSP running on ATG Dynamo servers.
Never being exposed to these technologies, I purchased around $1000 of books, researched information from Sun, JGuru, newsgroups, and yes this group. I have only posted twice here in the life of my 9 month project, however, I was truly stuck and could not find a straight answer.
My only comments is that one mans question maybe stupid to another man, however, the non-asked question is stupidest one of all.
I do agree with not posting the complete answer (code) and not allowing the person to learn from more experienced Java developers.
This only my 2 cents...
-Travis
Hi,
This is mevenu.I agree with you.Some people are asking very basic question. You are absolutly right.
But here my problem is , I was post a question just before you.
My question is just below to your question(URL encoding problem). Can you think that my question is a very basic question. But i don't have answer for your question. What can i do. If possible please help me in this regard. I am trying that from the past 15 days. but i don't have a answer for that. It's working in IE 5.0 5.5 and netscape 6.0 but not in netscape 6.
please kindly reply to mevenu@yahoo.com
I agree completely. I had a question a month or so ago and had some good help. I went back after I'd gotten the solution with the sole purpose of awarding the remaining duke dollars. I mean, you can't do anything with your own duke dollars but give them away so why don't they?
> Isn't that what this forum is all about. Helping each
> other out. None of us jumped into this business
> knowing it all! We should all be willing to help the
> younger developers tone their skills: Regardless of
> how much we think we know or how stupid we think the
> question is. None of us know it all. We should
> remember this in case we ourselves have questions
> which very well could fall into the same category.
this is right. however, there are differences how people behave. there are good reasons that there are faq's, tutorials and even specs (the servlet and jsp specs of sun are well worth reading!). people should read them before bothering someone else. you don't really learn something if you don't try to get your hands at the stuff yourself and instead ask people.
it's not surprising that even the most ardous people get bored when reading the same questions over and over again - especially if those are written down and answerd in some faq or tutorial.
robert
I totally agree with Greebo. Forums are to help each other! I also agree that it's important for people research before posting a question, but it is ridiculous not to paste code. It can be really hard to understand another persons explanation but seeing a small snippet of code makes it clear!!!
Seems like the general attitude amongst developers these days is "I know something you don't and so I won't tell you much". I started out in this field about 3 years ago. Up till then I thought Java was a type of coffee. It was through asking lots of questions and doing lots of reading, and as one person said "blowing a lot of money on Wrox's books, that I find myself as proficient as I am today. I must say that learning is all about sharing ideas. Granted, if you see a post that you think is dumb, then by all means don't reply. If you also feel that what you know will keep you ahead of the game, and thereby increase your job security, then by all means don't reply. But if you feel like helping out someone who's just getting started in the field, and you don't mind sharing a few ideas or concepts, then that's what this place is for. Don't assume that all people who post seemingly dumb questions on this forum haven't done their homework before coming here. Sometimes spending hours if not days searching the net for a solution can turn up nothing, and posting here is a last resort kinda thing.
Anyways... I try to help if I can. And if I'm stuck with something, I don't hesitate in asking. You give some and you take some. Right?
Value: $0.02
I emphatically agree with this poster.People who are learning and need help ARE stupid. I'm glad I was born on the planet Krypton, and I don't have to muddle through life asking stupid questions!
I second the deliberate and mature comments of Mr. Haroonc.
Sure there's alot of stupid things which go on in any public place and perhaps I'm a bit defensive in knowing that I've asked made a few lame postings and mistakes here myself.
But that's only in hindsight. What you should not assume is the context in which an individual might pose a query.
I know there have been lot's of times when I'm trying to tackle numerous areas of confusion and after a while the brain can get a little muddled up. That's because, at my level, I'm pushing hard to get a grip.
I post here because, thankfully, in many cases there are knowledgeable people who are ready to help because they've been there too and know what it takes.
That can save me lot's of time in following deadend leads elsewhere. To all those who taken their time to help me, a Big Thanks. I'll pay it back to others as I am able.
A few of the posters to this thread seem to assume they need to "waste their time" answering questions for "stupid people" who ask "them" questions. Hey, give it a break, I'm not asking You a question. I'm posting one for any helpful person who might offer advice.
Creating an environment where people are inhibited or overly cautious in their postings will certainly "degrade" the ability of this forum to fulfill its mission.
An open, encouraging environment at this forum is good for Java and the Java community as a whole!
As for slackers who want something for nothing, their postings give them away.....let it go, or better yet give'em a hint in a courteous manner.
And about going off-thread....healthy discussions often digress naturally, if you lose interest...bail!
To more sense,
Brad, boneheadprogrammer
By the way, thanks for the advice to use Forum search, should've been doing that long ago...paid off today.
brads at 2007-7-1 10:23:10 >
I absolutely agree with Mr.Pomroy's humorous and succinct (if not ironic) analysis of the topic. We are ALL human, fallible, and at different stages in our learning. If we find someone's question to seem idiotic, then we should skip over it and find an issue in the forum that is challenging enough for us to tackle.
Personally, I am learning JSP but am an expert in the field of Graphic Arts. If I'm asked a question regarding my field of expertise, and I feel that the question is not well thought out, then I simply ignore it. I don't feel that the person was silly in asking the question, beacause it shows that they are interested in a topic which I value.
I would never waste my time answering questions which I find tedious, because that will not accelerate my learning and enjoyment.
We are not Supermen, we are humans, so let's be a little patient with the beginners and not be of the "Bah, Humbug" mentality.
If you don't like the quality of the question - how about ignoring it?
My thanks to all those who have answered my stupid questions. I now, in turn, try to help others with some of the same stupid questions I had.
If a novice can't post a question here - let's create a place where they can.
This whole thing reeks of high school.
Mark
Hi,I totally agree with the comments that some people are not interested in helping. It seems to me that because of the lack of jobs out there people are reluctant to help. Saying people should stop asking "silly" questions is just an excuse for not wanting to help!!! Bal
