The future of Swing
Now that .net is nearly upon us, and given that Microsoft will continue its "Domination by Integration" strategy, one has to wonder how Swing will compete with the .net versions of VB and C#. My feeling is that Sun has to do more in terms of integrating Java clients and Java servers. IMHO Java Web Start (http://java.sun.com/products/javawebstart/) is a step in the right direction. However more needs to be done. See for example, Sitraka's implementation of webstart http://www.sitraka.com and Spidertop's Bali implementation of a servlet engine that generates Swing clients from JSP's http://www.spidertop.com )
Rich clients are going to be important in the world of web services . One has to wonder if Swing will be able to survive without broad adoption of Webstart and Bali. Otherwise it might slip into oblivion just like X/Motif.
[861 byte] By [
janusz_s] at [2007-9-26 4:19:47]
Your comments good, but the one thing we switched to Java for, and away from all of our long time MS development, was STABILITY. MS has imature development and OS platforms. I tend to get a little bent out of shape when I call their help line at 200 dollars a pop and tell them what is happening and they come back with it must be your 3rd party vendor doing it, then after telling them we run in a pure MS environment (which we did before we switch to Pure Sun Java for development), and their reply would be "We don't run well with ourselves either." And then my favorite comment would always follow: "Why would you want to do that?" and then my second favorite: "Your doing way more with that than we are here."
MS fits into a moderate data use and task environemt, but when you really stress it--well, lets just say we've not been really happy with it (languages, desktop tools, and OS's).
There is a lot more going on with movement to Java than just rapid development. The idea of writing it once and letting it run, and run, and run, and run--is very good and even better when it works that way.
Morgalr,
I am so pleased that someone else sees Java based apps as things that just run and run. Don't get me wrong, I love to do development, but I get frustrated when I have to spend more time doing workarounds than concentrating on the problem I'm trying to solve.
Most development technologies have their place. VB is for RAD and simple GUI development, C++ is for speed, Java for RAD, GUI and stability. I am trying to push more Java development of desktop client apps because of the stability and the lack of "inherent MS technology related issues". But the perception of Java as slow is very difficult to overcome.
MS is doing a monster job of marketing and the public is easily swayed. I wish Sun would take some tips from MS's marketing strategy. We have a great technology and we need to find better ways of promoting it to the public!
What do you think will be the future of Java/Swing on the desktop?
Just my 2 cents, but...
After some pretty intense work in Swing, I feel that it is doomed to very restricted usage in the long term. The single biggest flaw is the vulnerability of the class file format to reverse engineering. Just finding an obfuscator that works over reflection is a daunting task, so the prospect of actually releasing Swing based applications is an extremely risky one. I also feel that the applet side is doomed after given the power of the Macromedia tools such as Flash and Director. There is really no comparison. Also, the elusive goal of platform independence is certainly a double edged sword and has never been fully realized. It's a pity because I think that Swing is extremely powerful and relatively easy to use.
Anyway, back to your regularly scheduled program...
1) Reverse engineering is something we in world of Java have learned to live with, but now those in the land of Micro$oft will as well. The code that dotNet produces is subject to the same type of structure and can be just as easily rev-engineered.
2) Regarding Swing in the Applet, I would have to agree. Java is good for applets but not for presentation. However, I feel strongly that Java & JScript will remain strong in the Internet.
3) I think that the idea of platform independence in the realm of Java Applications has evolved into "Write once, run on any version of Windows".
The true fact that I'm telling my clients is that right now, with the hardware that they have now, I can develop an app that will do everything they need. And that app will run on whatever hardware or Windows OS they get in the future. You cannot say that of M$oft products. For many of my clients, I would have to build the apps in VB (they do not have the hardware to run dotNet). Then have to be rewritten for dotNet later (you know VB6 will die soon after VB.NET is adopted!). My Java Apps, just run and run and run.
Everything comes at a cost.If we wanted to do what is best for our mostly WinOS clients (all the speed and the pretty GUI as well) then we would all be developing in VC++ & MFC. Those apps (if written well) can be copied onto any WinOS and just run without any setup or installation. But who in their right mind wants to live in M$oft's version of C++!?!?!?!?This is a cost the developers have to live with.
The cost of Java Apps is that they are not native Windows apps. They don't look like it and they don't run like it. This is a cost that the users have to live with.
Just who is willing to live with which cost is the question we deal with everyday. And just guess who makes the final decision?!?!?
OK, I knew that if I made a stmt like that, I would surely have to eat my words. And I am very thankful that I am doing just that. I have been fighting an uphill battle about using Java for Desktop Apps.I just got the OK by a client to put an app (and some support work) in Java. I'm talking a Java Desktop App on a WinTel platform.So for all of you out there trying to get Java into Desktop apps under WinTel, take heart. There is hope.Some users DO live in the real world and just want things done right.
